Eco Copywriter Estelle Hakner
About this episode…
ECO COPYWRITER ESTELLE HAKNER
Estelle has created a freelance business that is good for her and the planet.
Focussing on her green values (some might say ‘ecopreneur’ 😬🌎 but she won’t) and building a business that plays to the strength of her introverted personality.
Living on a remote island off the coast of Scotland, she’s making time for work and life and it’s all going swimmingly. Wild swimmingly.
Read the highlights in the next tab.
PACKAGES HELP SELL WHEN INTROVERTED
Before Estelle created focussed packages for her services on her site, she would often fear the client call - not knowing what would happen, what the the process would be, how they’d like to work - dreading the ‘sale’. But now that’s all changed, spending time focussing on her processes and how she communicates her services…
“I'm not good at selling on the phone. It fills me with dread having to get on a call and sell someone on my value. So I thought if I create a sales page that does that heavy lifting for me, it will qualify leads so that when I get on a call, they know what the price is already. They know roughly how long I give for the work. We're kind of on a level playing field when we're on that call, they know what to expect.
And it just means that on that call, I can relax. They can relax cause they know what's expected of them and we can actually use it to get to know each other and work out if we're a good fit. And it's just a whole lot more enjoyable.
It's taken away so much of the anxiety for me. It's been the best thing.”
PACKAGES HELP MANAGE TIME
Packages don’t help with the selling, they also help the the doing…
“Having the packages just means that when I'm looking to plan out my day or my week or my month, if I've sold a certain number of packages, I know how long they take. I know what the process is, I know when everything needs doing and I can slip that into my schedule quite easily.”
STOP RUSHING - BLOCK IN TIME
Estelle blocks time in her diary for client work, her own business and importantly - life: walking the dog, running, swimming. And leaves enough time for each task to actually enjoy it rather than rushing.
“I would highly recommend it. It's really allowed me to be present in those moments. Not even just personal life, but work itself.
If you block out your time for the job, you're not constantly thinking, oh I need to get it done. I need to get it done - thinking about the next thing you need to do. That's your space to work on that job.
I tend to add a bit of a buffer into that time as well so that I can relax and enjoy it. Cause it's really important to find ways to remember to enjoy the work that you're doing rather than just trying to get onto the next thing.”
INTROVERTED? RUN YOUR BUSINESS YOUR WAY
Estelle stepped away from jobs in larger groups because it made her anxious. Now she’s built a business where introversion is a strength…
“I think when you are introverted, you maybe feel like the traditional ways of working, aren't quite right for you and you try to maybe adapt to work to them.
But actually, if you run your own business, you can start to build it up in a way that you use your introversion to your advantage.
So for example, if you're better at forming deep relationships with a few people, rather than getting out and talking to loads of people, then do that. Because ultimately that's gonna work for your business. You don't need to do stuff just for the sake of it. You can run it exactly how you want to.”
SLOW DOWN TO SPEED UP
Taking a step back and figuring out her niche, processes and learning her craft has led to Estelle being more in control of where she’s going…
“I'm going to steal a quote from my wild swimming coach. He always says "slow down to speed up".
Slow down, work on your technique and you'll gradually get there faster.
And I think when I first started freelancing, I probably was trying to rush to do everything. And it just felt like my business was getting away from me. I had no control over it. I wasn't enjoying the work. And as soon as I took a step back, I slowed down a bit, really started to take control over the kind of work that I wanted to do and simplify everything - go away, learn my craft so that I know what I'm doing. That's when it started to speed up and I started to get to where I wanted to go.”
“Use your introversion to your advantage.
You don't need to do stuff just for the sake of it. You can run your business exactly how you want to.”
Eco Copywriter Estelle Hakner
More from ESTELLE HAKNER
Estelle’s website
Estelle on Instagram
More from Steve Folland
Transcript of the Being Freelance podcast with Steve Folland and Freelance Eco Copywriter Estelle Hakner
Steve Folland:
Eco copywriter Estelle Hakner. Hey Estelle!
Estelle Hakner:
Hi. Thanks for having me.
Steve Folland:
You take remote working to an extra level - you live on a remote island off Scotland, right?
Estelle Hakner:
I do. Yes. The Isle of Jura. It's two ferry trips to get here. So we're not even the next island from the mainland/ We're an island from an island.
Steve Folland:
So cool. So now we know where you are, how about we get started hearing how you got started being freelance?
Estelle Hakner:
So when I was at uni I didn't really know what I wanted to do. I was studying English Literature and all I knew really was that I wanted to work with words. Also quite liked the idea of my work, having a deeper purpose, but I didn't really know what that was yet. I'd grown up just outside of London, but I'd moved to Cornwall to go to uni and I guess this kind of kickstarted my interest in environmentalism. I lived in Falmouth, so it's like a really green place. I lived with a marine photographer. So yeah, I kind of got to know a lot about her values and her way of life. And I think that rubbed off on me quite a bit. And I was living by the sea for the first time.
Estelle Hakner:
So all my free time was spent in or by the ocean. And I think this kind of built up quite a connection with nature for me and I really wanted to help protect it. So anyway, I'd started to get into student journalism at uni. So I thought I could possibly connect these two things - become an environmental journalist. So after uni I got a job at a magazine back in London, it was just a digital marketing magazine, but building up some skills and experience in that area. And then I left that job and I went to study my diploma in journalism and I did two internships when I was there. So I got an internship at Geographical magazine and an internship at BBC Wildlife.
Estelle Hakner:
So that was really cool. That was what I thought I wanted to do. It all seemed to be coming together. In fact, after my internship at Geographical, I'd built up quite a good relationship with the editor there and he was commissioning more work from me. So that felt like it was going really well. And also I was in the kind of final stages of interviews for a full-time role with BBC Wildlife. So that was all coming together. But at this point... I kind of had tried to ignore it a little bit, but I started to realize that I felt very uncomfortable at work most of the time when I was doing this kind of work. And even though I loved, loved, loved the work I was producing, the writing side of it was amazing if I could have just sat and like written all day that would've been perfect.
Estelle Hakner:
But the kind of group environment, you know, sitting in the office and answering calls coming in kind of always the like chasing the story, all that stuff actually made me very anxious. And I didn't realize at this point that I was an introvert or socially anxious even, but yeah, I started to wonder actually, if that was the right path for me. And alongside all this, it just so happens I'd been doing some content writing for a small content and proofreading company just like freelance to fund my studies. They actually also offered me a job, a full-time job and I was really surprised, but my gut reaction was to take that job. It had nothing to do with environmental work or anything that I'd been working towards, but it just instinctively felt more comfortable for my way of working.
Estelle Hakner:
It was a small group, there was just four of us, all women, all a similar age. And so I ended up taking that job and put the other stuff to the side, but actually I ended up going freelance as a copywriter. So I built some copywriting skills while I was there and I ended up going freelance about eight months later because I was made redundant - that company closed. So that's how I started as a freelance copywriter and I generalized for about two and a half years and I kind of kept the environmental interest alive by... I volunteered at nature reserves at the weekends and things like that. And then as I got more comfortable and I built up my experience and confidence, I felt confident enough to niche and to bring in this more eco focus and I kind of rebuilt the business around eco brands and copywriting for eco brands. So yeah, that's the story.
Steve Folland:
So it's kind of a combination of working to the values, the purpose as you put it, but also to suit yourself, having recognized what you needed as an introvert.
Estelle Hakner:
Yes, exactly. So I suppose finding the purpose... it almost forces you to think about the other aspect of it and how you'd like to work and realizing that you can do things in a way that suits you. I think possibly as a generalist, you feel like you have to be in all these traditional environments - you're kind of just trying to meet anyone. Whereas I find now that having a specific purpose and values that I'm looking for in my work, it kind of takes me to more intimate settings naturally.
Steve Folland:
So when you first went freelance - as a generalist - how did you go about getting those clients?
Estelle Hakner:
I was really lucky. So the company that I was working at, I was the only content writer, the other three were proof readers and when the company closed, my employer actually recommended to the clients I was already working with that they follow me as a freelancer because I'd built up good relationships with them and I already knew the work that they needed and how they like to work. So they basically formed the basis of my new freelance business. And some of them I still work with today. It was mainly at that point, kind of trade clients. Not necessarily work that lit me up, but it was very steady and reliable. And I think at that time, you know, just to get your business off the ground, there's a lot to be said for doing work that doesn't necessarily excite you all the time, but it's just steady and lets you learn the ropes a little bit.
Estelle Hakner:
But actually there was two clients that I worked with during that time where I worked with a senior copywriter and then a website marketer. So that wasn't direct to the client - they had their own clients that I then came on board and I ended up kind of building really good relationships with them. And I think that is a benefit of being more of an introverted person is that I'm hopeless in group networking or whatever, but if I click with someone I can build a really deep lasting relationship and that's what happened with them two. And it's been a really kind of incredible source of work even now. So the copywriter would perhaps outsource to me and now that I'm a bit more experienced, he just kind of passes clients to me. And also now that I have some experience as well, I can reciprocate, which is really nice. So I think forming these kind of really genuine reciprocal relationships has been very beneficial for me.
Steve Folland:
But then you decide actually, I still wanna get back to those values and that purpose and decide to niche into that. Was that as simple as simply saying it? How did you make that work?
Estelle Hakner:
I think it's been quite a long process. Tthat was about two to three and a half years ago that I decided to niche. The first thing I did was I got my branding done to reflect the new niche. That was a real confidence boost. Just to kind of feel more legit putting my stuff out there. So I told people as well, I just said to people, this is the kind of work that I'm interested in. And on social media, I started to talk more about environmental things and just tried to curate my content a little bit more in that way. But yeah, it certainly wasn't instant. I did find that leads that were getting passed to me eventually became more aligned. So the copywriter that I worked with, he would start to pass me work that was more of a good fit for the environmental side. Nicheing can be really powerful in that way, because if you start to get known for it, you kind of become like a magnet for the type of work you want to do. Someone hears eco client and they think, 'oh, Estelle was interested in that'. But it has taken a little while and also just building up confidence to say 'I'm a specialist in this niche'. That's taken a little while as well.
Steve Folland:
How were you putting yourself out there? When you said you were telling people - where do you put yourself out into the world?
Estelle Hakner:
So Instagram is one of the big things that I use. I made a bit of a plan on Instagram around kind of trying to get a balance between talking about copywriting and talking about more eco topics - and also more personal things as well. So that people got more of a rounded picture of who I am. Another big one was Facebook groups. So I found a Facebook group for my niche, a group for eco business owners. The great thing about it, is it's full of not just copywriters, there's website developers, marketers, accountants, like all sorts, just people that would identify as an 'ecopreneur'. I don't really like that word, but lots of people use it.
Estelle Hakner:
So I got involved in those and that's been really beneficial because I think a lot of Facebook communities, they also have a kind of in-person element sometimes. So this particular group, each month there'll be different meetups that you can go to. And I know I said, I don't like networking, but I found this particular form of networking really good, because I already know the people that I'm getting on the networking call with because we've been in this group - that's quite an intimate space. It's not just like new people every time. That's been really good. So just really getting to know people and not trying to push services. I think that's just a big thing that I've learned - to just show up and be yourself and build genuine relationships, let people know what you're into, feel free to be different. Don't feel like you have to be like everyone else. And yeah, it's sparked some good collaborations and word of mouth referrals.
Steve Folland:
And so those are sort of online events, but bringing to life a Facebook group that you've been in.
Estelle Hakner:
Exactly. So they'll be on Zoom or Google Meet or something. There's a few different types of things. So you know, there might be just a general kind of chat, like a networking thing. But also what I really like is, some groups that I'm in they'll do like a coworking kind of afternoon. And I think that's really beneficial because particularly if you are more nervous on calls, it's helpful to be doing something so you go away and you do a bit of work and you can come back and you can talk about it. And it kind of gives a structure I suppose, which can be really helpful.
Steve Folland:
Virtual coworking. So do you all leave your cameras on while you're working?!
Estelle Hakner:
We don't, so there's also a kind of environmental reason behind it. So when you're video streaming, if you turn a camera off, it's better for your carbon footprint. So that's part of it, but also they'll do like a kind of Pomodoro, so you'll have a chat and then turn the cameras off and then work for 25 minutes, come back, have a chat, turn the cameras off and do it like that.
Steve Folland:
And so at what point did you move to Jura?
Estelle Hakner:
Pretty much exactly when I niched. So I think this might have had an impact on it. Sonabout two and a half years ago,
Steve Folland:
Impact in what way?
Estelle Hakner:
I mean, this is just something that I've reflected on. I'm not entirely sure. It wasn't like a conscious thing, but I think back now and I'm like, well, I just made a big life change in terms of, you know, moving from London all the way up here. And I wonder if that kind of kicked my brain into gear, like, 'oh, you know, you can do that, then you can make another quite significant change. But I think also I'm so close to nature here. Walk out the door and there's mountains and ocean and wildlife everywhere. And I think that probably inspired me or perhaps reminded me a bit of the fact that I loved that side of things. And I think perhaps when I'd been generalizing for so long, I might have lost sight of that a bit.
Estelle Hakner:
And to be really honest, I didn't see it. It was a bit of a light bulb moment when I realized that I could bring this in as my niche. It seems quite obvious now - it was right in front of me the whole time, but I hadn't considered that could be my niche. I hadn't considered it was a viable niche that people could choose to niche in that way. I'd heard of choosing an industry or a skill to niche in, but not so much like 'values'. And it kind of all clicked into place and it seemed so perfect when it happened.
Steve Folland:
And so you put yourself out on Instagram and because of where you live, you are showing your brand and values, you don't even have to be doing the work and yet you are showing the brand. It's great. But do you also then follow or interact with eco businesses?
Estelle Hakner:
Yes, I do. So it's pretty cool because I find that the relationships that I've formed in these Facebook groups and in, in real life, like on video, they mean that if I'm sharing content on Instagram... there's a really lovely sense in this community, where everyone shares everyone's stuff and is pretty supportive like that. And in turn, I share other people's stuff and yeah, just like I've found it has kind of really helped me find my flow with social media, because I think social media can feel like really hard work. And if it feels like hard work, you're not gonna do it. So I try really hard to keep my Instagram in particular, just kind of natural and intuitive and social as well, because that is what it is at the end of the day.
Estelle Hakner:
You know, I try and treat it as I would a kind of in-person social situation. So just kind of having chats with people who I click with, telling other people about the content I've seen, if I think it's interesting and importantly as well, if I'm not feeling particularly peopley, you know, feeling free to stay quiet a bit, because I think social media has to be sustainable for you. And if you're naturally not very extroverted in real life, then you don't have to be on social media - I've found that quite helpful, just trying to really kind of use it in a way that, that feels natural to who I actually am. And as you say, I'm very fortunate because I can walk out my door and there's kind of content already there. Like, I didn't have anything to post the other day, but I walked out and there were dolphins in the bay, so I'm like, okay, cool, that's great. So I do make like a bit of a plan for social media. I have a rough plan, but I try to keep it loose enough to let real life kind of come into it, you know? So I'm not completely stuck to that plan.
Steve Folland:
I noticed on your website, you have packages for your services. So I wondered how being specific about what it is that you offer and how much it is - has that helped your business?
Estelle Hakner:
Yes. So the reason I initially did that was that I found that for quite a while when I first started freelancing, I was just responding to inquiries and I was working in everyone else's ways - so I was doing all sorts of work, whatever people needed. And I didn't particularly have a process. I was just kind of like, oh, how do you want to work? I'll follow that. And I thought that was being helpful, but actually for a start, I think when you hire a specialist, you kind of want to know how it's gonna work and things. But also for me, it really didn't help with my confidence, not being able to lead the process. So I'd get on calls or I'd have a meeting and I'd feel so anxious because I'd think oh, I don't really know what the process is here and what's expected of me.
Estelle Hakner:
So I decided that in fact I was gonna kind of control of the process a bit more. I thought, right, what services do I most like doing? And that was website copywriting. So I'm just gonna focus on website copywriting, and I'm gonna create a package because I'm not good at selling on the phone. It fills me with dread having to get on a call and sell someone on my value. So I thought if I create a sales page that does that heavy lifting for me, it will qualify leads so that when I get on a call, they know what the price is already. They know roughly how long I give for the work. We're kind of on a level playing field when we're on that call, they know what to expect. And it just means that on that call, I can relax. They can relax cause they know what's expected of them and we can actually use it to get to know each other and work out if we're a good fit. And it's just a whole lot more enjoyable.
Estelle Hakner:
So there's that, and it also really helps with organizing my time. So I do still take on other work if people need it, but having the packages just means that when I'm looking to plan out my day or my week or my month, if I've sold a certain number of packages, I know how long they take. I know what the process, I know when everything needs doing and I can slip that into my schedule quite easily. So it's been really beneficial. And I guess, not everyone wants the full package that I've put on the website, but it kind of gives them a starting point and then you can have a conversation and, oh my gosh, it's taken away so much of the anxiety for me. So yes, it's been the best thing.
Steve Folland:
That's so good. And also there's kind of like a more stripped down consultation version of it?
Estelle Hakner:
Yeah. So I offer like an audit for people that either don't have budget or aren't sure that they want the full service. So I try to be as helpful as possible because everyone's at different stages and budget is an issue and yeah, I want to be able to help if I can. So just having the kind of entry level option as well is helpful. And I really love doing those because it's like a day rather than a full blown project. So it means you get to work with lots of different brands in some way as well.
Steve Folland:
And so you talked about being able to plan out your schedule. So do you have quite a firm rhythm to how you like to work?
Estelle Hakner:
Yes I do. So I try to have a structure, but not make it too rigid because then that becomes stressful in itself. Generally I work Monday to Wednesday - I prioritize client work. And then Friday is always a CEO day: so working on my own business and then Thursday I have a bit of a buffer day just depending on how the week's going. So if I need to spend a bit more time on client work, that might eat into a bit of the Thursday, or if I want to spend more time on my business, I might spend some Thursday doing that. Or I might just take Thursday kind of off and like listen to podcasts or catch up on training calls and things.
Estelle Hakner:
So a bit of a personal development day. So that works quite well. And I might kind of keep up with housework while I'm doing that. So it kind of benefits me in a couple of ways, but in terms of day to day, I've also done a lot of work figuring out when I work best and where my energy is. So I'm definitely a morning person. So what I do is I'll start a bit earlier, so I might start at eight and then I'll work pretty solidly through to one just doing my most important work of the day. So usually creative work, when my mind is fresh. So I'll turn off emails. I try to turn off social media. And I'll get like that solid chunk done. And then I'm pretty strict about taking a long enough lunch break to walk my dog because it's just something important that I wanted to fit into my day.
Estelle Hakner:
And then when I come back from that, I will just do light admin because yeah, later on in the day my brain doesn't work so well, so I'll just kind of work on emails or kind of lighter admin jobs. So obviously love routine and that's quite important. But I was finding that I wasn't getting enough time for exercise or personal life in that way. So what I actually started doing was scheduling it in like a client meeting. So that's in my calendar. I use time blocking. So everything kind of has its own colour code. Client work might be blue. Personal life is yellow. Work on my business is pink - and I'll block out those slots in my calendar so that I can see exactly what the day and the week looks like.
Estelle Hakner:
And there'll be slots for... for example, I like to go for a run on a Friday morning and that's actually like a non-negotiable - it's in my calendar. So that means that I make dedicated time for that. So I can properly switch off when I'm doing that 'job'. Cuz it's like a client task I'm like, right, this is my running time. Cuz before I always felt like I was trying to squeeze stuff in, you know, like, oh quickly take the dog for a walk. And then you're thinking oh I need to get back to work. But now it's in my calendar. It's like two till three - walk the dog. So then I can relax during that time. So that's been really beneficial too.
Steve Folland:
That's so funny. Isn't it? It's such a subtle thing - that switch from guilt to, well the opposite almost like pride, I guess...
Estelle Hakner:
Yes. I would highly recommend it. It's really allowed me to be present in those moments. Not even just personal life, but work itself. Cuz if you block out your time for the job, you know you're not constantly thinking, oh I need to get it done. I need to get it done. You know, thinking about the next thing you need to do. That's your space to work on that job. I tend to add a bit of a buffer into that time as well so that I can relax and enjoy it. Cause it's really important. To find ways to remember to enjoy the work that you're doing rather than just trying to get onto the next thing.
Steve Folland:
And then how about your weekends? Cause it sounds like your weeks are nicely balanced and so at weekends, do you work at all?
Estelle Hakner:
I've got a little bit out of balance with it recently, but I definitely don't do client work. I try to keep the weekends completely client free, but on a Saturday I may do a bit of work for the business, but I will only do it if it's like something enjoyable. For example, recently I've been taking a course and it's filled me with quite a lot of things that I want to get done. So I'm quite enjoying spending Saturdays working through that and it doesn't necessarily feel like work. And if I do work on a Saturday, I make sure that in the afternoon or the morning, like I'll take time to do something weekendy. Like having a bit of a lie-in before I do the work or something, just so it doesn't feel like a work day.
Estelle Hakner:
Sundays I definitely try to keep free because it's important to have a rest day and if I work through a Sunday, it just doesn't benefit the rest of the work. So yeah, usually Sundays I try to go swimming. I feel like that that really sets me up for the week. So again, that's like something that's scheduled into the week. It's a bit of an non-negotiable cuz I've just found it really beneficial for my wellbeing.
Steve Folland:
That's wild swimming, right?
Estelle Hakner:
It is. Sometimes very wild swimming. It's got so many benefits I think. Having some activity, you know, whatever's available to you, if it's not exercise, just thinking of something else that's available to you - having something that takes you out of your head and puts you into your body or into a different state of mind, I think is really important. So for me, it's wild swimming and it just forces you to stop thinking about work because you physically cannot think about work when you're in like 10 degree water. It becomes a much more primal thing. And it just also puts things into perspective cuz I'm just trying to kind of stay alive, that this little issue really doesn't matter anymore. You know, if you've got like a little problem that was niggling at you, you come out and you're like, oh, that really is not a big deal actually.
Steve Folland:
So it's obvious that you live your eco values in your life, but you also make them run through the way you run your business as well don't you?
Estelle Hakner:
Yes. So the website, for example - just trying to make that as green as possibl, just trying to keep the carbon footprint of the website down. And I'm a member of 1% For The Planet where 1% of annual earnings goes towards environmental causes. There's just so many different ways to do business and it's quite exciting to learn about all these changes you can make to improve it for the better. So that's been a big focus for me this year. Making sure I'm walking the walk.
Steve Folland:
Other than literally swimming, it sounds like everything's going swimmingly. Is there anything that you found particularly challenging about being freelance?
Estelle Hakner:
For me probably the biggest challenge has just been kind of like the confidence to get visible and start marketing myself. Because I think though it was wonderful that so much of my work was and still is through word of mouth and referrals, it did mean that I didn't really have to worry about marketing myself - so I could kind of sit happily in my office and write away and not really worry about getting visible. And I, I potentially got a bit too comfortable with that. And when I niched, it was much more important to start talking about what I was doing. Social media andyour website are really important and they're great, but I think starting to get out and talk to people in person or on Zoom - I feel like it gets to a point where I feel like that's really important as well.
Estelle Hakner:
And for me, it's just not something I was comfortable with. I was so worried about it for a really long time. I'm part of a coaching group. So even just getting on coaching calls - terrifying. I don't know why. I found that so difficult and the way I got over that was... I think simplifying helped. So just choosing to focus on website copywriting and really understanding the purpose behind it that - really helped cuz it kind of gave my messaging a real focus so that I knew what I was talking about rather than trying to talk about everything. And just going away and kind of learning my craft and you know, doing things like learning more about green marketing. So I knew what I was talking about.
Estelle Hakner:
I was confident talking about it and just gradually starting to dip my toes into maybe asking a question in a coaching call or joining different things. And eventually it built up my confidence around it a bit and now I still get very nervous doing stuff like this, but I really want to do it and it's exciting because I feel like I want to use my voice a bit more. So that's been probably my biggest struggle, but I feel like I'm getting there with it.
Steve Folland:
By scheduling life and work, you are protective of your time and the time that you take off, but does that mean that you don't take on all the work that comes your way? How do you deal with that?
Estelle Hakner:
I think it's always a bit of a struggle because of the feast or famine mindset. But I generally am quite good with that. I guess the thing with knowing about how long these projects take me, because I do a similar kind of project each time. I'm very realistic about how much I can fit in. So I think I say on my website, I have at least a two week wait list. So clients are already expecting that, but if I can see that I've got work booked in, then I will just say, you know, this is the date I can start. And if they're happy to wait, then that's great. Or if they're not happy to wait, I'll recommend someone else that they can use.
Estelle Hakner:
So I try to be helpful in that way and refer to another copywriter if I don't have capacity to take it on. But also the thing that I started doing this year that I learned from my coach, was if I have a bit of a wait list and I can't start for say four weeks - rather than saying that, I'll say there's some homework you can be getting on with so we can start. We can start like doing the admin, like the invoice and stuff. And that generally takes us up to the start date anyway, cuz it takes time to get all that booked in, like I take a 50% upfront payment and things and getting the contract signed. So that's worked quite well.
Steve Folland:
Estelle, if you could tell your younger self one thing about being freelance, what would that be?
Estelle Hakner:
Okay. So I'm going to steal a quote from my wild swimming coach. He always says "slow down to speed up". And as soon as he said this, I was like, oh, that's such a good like thing to say in business. He's referring to it as in like slow down, work on your technique and you'll gradually get there faster. And I think when I first started freelancing, I probably was trying to rush to do everything. And it just felt like my business was getting away from me. I had no control over it. I wasn't enjoying the work. And as soon as I took a step back, I slowed down a bit, really started to take control over the kind of work that I wanted to do and simplify everything - go away, learn my craft so that I know what I'm doing. That's when it started to speed up and I started to get to where I wanted to go. So that's what I'd tell my younger self.
Steve Folland:
Is a great quote. Perfect. Very early on in this story, there was this thing about anxiety, about being around too many people in an office. It feels like you haven't just created a business that works being introverted, but rather made being introverted a key part of it.
Estelle Hakner:
Yeah. I think so. I think when you are introverted, you kind of maybe feel like the traditional ways of working, aren't quite right for you and you try to maybe adapt to work to them. But actually, if you run your own business, you can start to build it up in a way that you use your introversion to your advantage. So for example, if you're better at forming deep relationships with a few people, rather than getting out and talking to loads of people, then do that. Because ultimately that's gonna work for your business. You don't need to do stuff just for the sake of it. You can run it exactly how you want to.
Steve Folland:
Estelle, thank you so much and all the best being freelance!
Estell Hakner:
Thank you.
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