Reel Relationships - Voiceover Tim Odofin
About this episode…
VOICEOVER TIM ODOFIN
Tim always wanted to work in the media, but his day job was in local government.
For years he would do voiceovers on the side of his job, often starting early, working late and even through lunch breaks. Finally, with a year’s buffer of cash saved up he decided it was now or never. It was time to go full-time freelance.
That was three years ago and it wasn’t the savings that got him through - it was the relationships he’d invested in.
Time to get Tim behind the mic, not for a voiceover, but to share his story of being freelance.
Read the highlights in the next tab.
FINANCIAL SAFTEY NET
Tim freelanced on the side of his main job, putting the extra income into savings. That way he had a financial safety net ready for when he made the leap…
“I was getting paid a pretty good wage. So the money that I was earning from voiceovers I'd been putting away for a time. I got to the point where I'd built up the equivalent of about a year's salary. I thought to myself, okay, if next year comes and I go freelance full-time as a voiceover, if I don't make any money at all for a whole 12 months, I'll still be all right.
So I guess I had that buffer, but at the same time, it was just a case of, at some point you have to make the decision - you just have to say, you know what, I'm going to take the plunge.”
NETWORKING & GETTING TO KNOW PEOPLE
Tim is a big believer in building relationships - that’s what brings him work and helps with the solitary nature of freelancing. There’s a real variety in the people he connects with…
“I tend to go to digital marketing events. So at a digital marketing event, you might have people who own digital marketing agencies who make videos, adverts, podcasts, TikTok, Instagram, Facebook ads, and the like. You get illustrators, photographers, different kinds of people.
You're not going there to ‘sell’ in terms of every single person, 'oh, this is what I do'. It's more trying to just get to know people. You're just trying to build relationships with people, get to know each other. And then in due course - getting to know people, getting to like them and getting to trust them. And then after a while, when they eventually require your service, if that relationship is quite strong, generally you might be the first person that they think of.”
ALWAYS BE MARKETING
Tim knows as well as getting new clients, it’s easier to get work from existing clients, but that he’s got to stay top of mind…
“You've got to be constantly marketing yourself to let people know that you're still you're there. And this is with clients that you've worked with in the past. You've got to let them know that you're still there, you're still available because I think there's a stat that says something like, it's 11 times easier to get repeat business from a previous client than it is to go out and get a new client.
But all the time, you're trying to top up with new clients because what will happen is just generally in business, not every single customer that you work with is going to come back. That's just the nature of life.
Always be calling. Always be marketing. Always be on the hunt.”
FINDING HIS NICHE
Tim does a bit variety of types of work, but his niche is as an African British Voiceover…
“I think it was a case of what people are asking you for. Because when I first started out, I was just doing regular adverts and then somebody would approach and say, oh we need a voiceover for an advert that we're doing that's going to play out in Nigeria or Ghana...
And of course, once you realise that that's what people want - the more people get to know about what you can do, the more of course they come looking for you.”
WINNING AWARDS
Tim knows how important being nominated for awards is, but also realises it’s not everything…
“To get nominated, it's good - number one for your ego, but more importantly, for a marketing perspective, it's something that you can use and the awards body obviously does marketing as well.
And it's a chance to meet your peers. It's a chance to meet people that will hire you. Build up a relationship that way.
But they're not the be all and end all, don't get me wrong. There are producers who don't care how many awards you've won or how many nominations you've got, what they want to know is what can you do for me?”
BUSINESS FIRST, CREATIVE SECOND
You might become a freelancer to get work in the thing you love doing - but it won’t be what you’re doing most of the time…
“What I've learnt over time is that we have to think of ourselves as business people first and as creatives second.
If I use voiceover as an example, when you're behind the mic, that's where you're making money, because you're doing jobs that you get paid for. But you've got to do a lot of work to get yourself behind the mic. There's a lot of admin to be done. There's a lot of marketing - whether it's updating your website, your social media, going to networking events. There's a whole load of things that you've got to do to get that work in.”
“Believe in yourself.
You’ve got to believe in yourself constantly”
Tim Odofin, Voiceover
More from TIM ODOFIN
Transcript of the Being Freelance podcast with Steve Folland and Freelance Voiceover Tim Odofin
Steve Folland:
As ever. How about we get started hearing how you got started being freelance?
Tim Odofin:
So the short version of the story is I used to work in radio as a radio presenter and then one day, a very good friend of mine now, as he is now, he was the head of production. He came up to me and said, you've got a really good voice. You should do voiceovers. And I was like, what's that? But because he made all the adverts for the station, I figured he knew what he was talking about. So he made me a demo. And then the next time when they had an advert that needed a voice like mine, he books me. I started doing voiceovers for the station and here we are today.
Tim Odofin:
The longer version of the story is I used to work at a corporate job, that's not what I wanted to do with my life. So I had always kind of done public speaking stuff, right from when I was in school, vice president of the drama society, president of the debating society. I've been a master of ceremony for many, many years,hosting all kinds of events up and down the country, all over the place. MCing led me into TV, TV led me into radio and then radio led me into voiceover.
Steve Folland:
Were you employed full time by the radio station?
Tim Odofin:
I was employed part-time by the radio station, so I had a show on there and then I provided cover for the breakfast show and the DriveTime show and the late night show.
Steve Folland:
And the rest of your time?
Tim Odofin:
I had a full-time job in local authority housing.
Steve Folland:
So both of those were effectively employed jobs. And then you started to do freelance voice-over work on the side. How did it grow into that being your main job?
Tim Odofin:
I just found that voiceover was a job that I could do on my own terms, because effectively, if you're going to do a radio show, nowadays you can do that from your house but way back then you couldn't, you always have to physically leave your home to go somewhere. Same thing with a TV job. But voiceover was something that I could do at home because you could buy the equipment. The barrier to entry is not that much in terms of cost. So you could buy the equipment, get advice in terms of what to set up, how to set up, and you could do it from home. So it was something that even when the station wanted me to do a voiceover, if I wasn't at the station and they sent me the script, I could just do it at home and send it into them basically. And then the engineers or the producers would do their magic to make me sound fabulous.
Steve Folland:
What year are we talking about - when you did your first voiceover?
Tim Odofin:
I did my first voiceover in 2011, so 10 years ago.
Steve Folland:
And when did you become a full time VO?
Tim Odofin:
I went full-time in 2019.
Steve Folland:
The rest of that time...
Tim Odofin:
I was still working in local authority housing. So effectively I would do a full day at work. I would come home, have dinner with the family, sit down and once the kids are gone to bed and then whatever voiceover jobs I then had, I would then do into the night. So it wasn't uncommon for me to get back home and be in my booth voice until about one, sometimes two o'clock in the morning, and then I'd go to bed and I have clients in the middle east, and they like to do jobs early. So based on the time difference, sometimes that could be 5AM or 6AM. So it wasn't uncommon for me to go to bed at one o'clock in the morning and then get up at five to make sure I had enough time to get myself ready, warm up my voice, and then be voicing for them at 6AM, finish that and then go to work.
Steve Folland:
Wow. No wonder they thought you'd be good for breakfast shows. Beyond the ones that came from the radio station. How did you start to get more work?
Tim Odofin:
It's a combination of people that you know, getting to know quite a few producers. So you can say networking is one way. Another way is casting sites - most creative industries tend to have casting sites that you can join. So some of these, you pay a fee to be on, you set up a profile and clients who are looking for that type of creative willl go to those sites and social media as well. And then just hustling around town really to just get the word out and get your name out.
Steve Folland:
Hustling? What does that actually mean? Would you go knocking on doors at production companies?
Tim Odofin:
Knocking on the proverbial door, but it's near enough along those kinds of lines. So getting in touch with video production companies, audio production companies, and this could be through either calls or it could be through emailing. And going to networking events has proved very successful for me because when you go to networking events where you meet people who are in production or videographers and things like that, and you generally stay in contact; some of them, you become good friends with them, or you get to know them more via social media, which is an extremely handy tool to use nowadays.
Steve Folland:
What would those networking events be?
Tim Odofin:
I tend to go to digital marketing events. So a digital marketing event, you might have people who own digital marketing agencies who make videos. They make adverts, they do podcasts. They make shorts for TikTok, Instagram, Facebook, Facebook ads, and the like. You get illustrators, photographers, different kinds of people. And the main thing about those kinds of events is when you go is you're going there not really to sell in terms of every single person, 'oh, this is what I do'. It's more trying to just get to know people. And voiceover is quite a solitary kind of job because I spendmost of my days in my own studio talking to myself, I mean, before COVID, of course there were days on a regular basis where I would have to go into London.
Tim Odofin:
If you're familiar with London, Soho is usually where most of the voiceover agents and the big voiceover studios are so I would go to Soho quite a lot to record jobs. But of course, once the pandemic hits leaving the house was a no-no at one point and lots of the studios shut down simply because all their creators were working from home. So even before COVID though generally, as a voiceover you spend most of your time in your own studio. So it was a nice way to go out and meet other people who did a similar thing in terms of their jobs. Because a lot of illustrators work from home, a lot of audio producers don't work at a radio station or an office. They work for themselves from their own studio. So it was a good way to go out and meet people and build relationships, which is pretty much what the backbone of business marketing networking is really. You're just trying to build relationships with people, get to know each other. And then in due course - getting to know people, getting to like them and getting to trust them. And then after a while, when they eventually require your service, if that relationship is quite strong, generally you might be the first person that they think of.
Steve Folland:
Do you do anything to try and stay top of mind for when they might need a voiceover?
Tim Odofin:
Yeah. I mean, for me, it's about being interested in who that person is and what they do. Because if you think about it this way, you wouldn't walk into an event, stand there, meet somebody and spend the whole time talking about yourself in terms of, 'oh, this is who I am, this is what I do'. It's more having an interest in who you're talking to, what they do, who they are, what kind of things do they like? I mean, it's not uncommon for me to do a voice session that is a live job, which is where you're doing it with a producer. And we could spend 15 minutes talking about our children, ice cream, holidays. And then the actual voiceover job might take us two minutes, but we've been on the phone for 20 minutes because that's how you get to build relationships with people.
Tim Odofin:
In terms of what you were asking - to stay on top of mind nowadays, social media really is probably one of the main ways. And then every now and again, I pick up the phone to say hello to them or send them an email, might send them cards, sending them a Christmas present, that kind of thing. But it's about just being interested in people. That's what it really is about.
Steve Folland:
Building up to when you went full-time freelance - how did you know that you were ready?
Tim Odofin:
The period came towards the end of 2018. Towards the end of the year you start thinking about what you want to achieve for the following year. Some people call them new year's goals, new year's resolutions targets, that kind of thing. Your mind starts to wonder and think, okay, what am I going to do with my life next year that's different from what I've done this year? So it was towards the end of 2018 when I was beginning to think you know what... When? When, when, when, when, when, when? And what I'd been doing basically was, the job that I was doing in housing I was getting paid a pretty good wage. So the money that I was earning from voiceovers I'd been putting away for a time.
Tim Odofin:
And I got to the point where I'd built up the equivalent of about a year's salary. I thought to myself, okay, if next year comes and I go freelance full-time as a voiceover, if I don't make any money at all for a whole 12 months, I'll still be all right. So I guess I had that buffer, but at the same time, it was just a case of, at some point you have to make the decision, because if not you, at some point you just have to say, you know what, I'm going to take the plunge. And I'm in the fortunate position that I spoke to my wife about it, and she just said to me, you know, you're going to have to do it at some point, you're going to have to make the choice and it's going to be now or never really.
Tim Odofin:
We'd spoken about this thing many, many times, and I always had her support. Then she just told me that, look, this is what you want to do with your life. It's something you've dreamt about. It's something you've worked towards. And if you don't do it now, when are you going to do it? And so I went into work a few days later and told them that I was going to be leaving. Of course, once the wheels are in motion and they start planning send off parties for you, people start asking you, what are you going to be doing? And there's always this little bit in the back of your mind that thinks, Hmm, am I doing the right thing? Even though this is what you love. And one day I woke up and it was my last day. Then I left and started off in January 2019 as a full-time VO and off I went really.
Steve Folland:
Did you do anything different once you were full time?
Tim Odofin:
Well, I think the main difference was the fact that when I woke up, I didn't have anything else to preoccupy my mind apart from just getting on with being a voiceover. Because while I was in my corporate job, of course, if somebody sent me an email during the day, I might not get it until a few hours later, I might not be able to respond. Or if you got a job last minute - because a lot of work in voiceover is last minute. And what that requires from you is it requires you to do the job there and then - it's not uncommon to get an email at 4:45 on a Friday. And it says, look, Tim, we've got something that needs to be on air tomorrow. Are you available now? So the immediacy of it - now I could respond immediately. I was there.
Tim Odofin:
Or you'd get a phone call and they'd say, oh, hi, Tim, how are you? Are you available today? And I'd say yes. And they say, right, great. I'm sending you a script. Like now, if you look at your email, I've already sent you the script. I'll be online in two minutes. And then you go into the booth, click, open your software and it's time to go. So, because it wasn't uncommon for me to be at work, go home during my lunch break, do two, three voiceover jobs that I'd been sent and then get back to work after that because those were jobs that needed to be done because you're trying not to, you're trying to build clients, but not lose them because if they call you and you're not available, the chances are tomorrow. They might go somewhere else.
Steve Folland:
Yeah. I was wondering about that, because a lot of the people I speak to, their types of jobs mean that they might work with a client for a week, two weeks, a month, six months. Whereas as you mentioned for voiceover, there's much more fluctuation to it. How do you cope with that?
Tim Odofin:
In voiceover it's kind of described as boom and bust. So you get periods where there's a lot of work and then you get periods where there might be not that much work, but the main flow of it is to keep it ticking over. And that's the kind of position that I've worked to get myself in. You've got to be constantly marketing yourself to let people know that you're still you're there. And this is with clients that you've worked with in the past. You've got to let them know that you're still there. You're still available because I think there's a stat that says something like, it's 11 times easier to get repeat business from a previous client than it is to go out and get a new client. So in terms of fluctuation with previous clients, it's just to let them know that, you know, you're still there, you're still available for them, but all the time, you're trying to top up with new clients because what will happen is just generally in business, not every single customer that you work with is going to come back.
Tim Odofin:
A percentage of them will drop off. That's just the nature of life. Not because you haven't provided a good service or because they don't like your service or what you've done for them. It's just a case of that's just the way the world is. So it's just trying to cover that fluctuation by staying in mind with your previous clients and trying to be out there. Always be calling. Always be marketing. Always be on the hunt. So it's not a case of you get so much work that you're so busy that you stop marketing yourself. Because if you do, eventually the work is going to tail off. There's something that somebody said to me a while back - they said, think about it, Coca Cola and McDonald's are two of the best known brands in the world, but they still advertise - if they have to still advertise then why wouldn't you?
Steve Folland:
So true. Though you have now made me want a McDonald's.
Tim Odofin:
I used to work in McDonald's actually. It's how I put myself through college and uni.
Steve Folland:
But the sort of work you do - do you have a niche?
Tim Odofin:
I do a variety of work. I do radio and TV commercials. I do corporate jobs that might be in the form of a company video. E-learning - I do quite a lot of that. And then I also do tiny jobs, like for in-store- if you go to Tesco's or you go to Sainsbury's ,Morrison's, Co-op you might hear an announcement when you're in store to say, this is the special offer that we've got on today - that kind of thing. I do quite a lot of that kind of work as we call that.
Tim Odofin:
In terms of niche, I'm Nigerian, so I do African accents quite a lot. That's probably the niche that I'm known for. Cause I market myself as an African British voiceover. So in terms of work that needs doing for different regions of Africa, a lot of the adverts are made here in London. So I've got myself into a position that I've become well-known as one of the go-to guys for that. So in terms of a niche, that's the area.
Steve Folland:
It's an interesting niche though, going for African British voice over. I'm always interested gow people realise what their potential niche is.
Tim Odofin:
I think it was a case of what people are asking you for. Because when I first started out, I was just doing regular adverts and then somebody would approach and say, oh, well we need a voiceover for an advert that we're doing that's going to play out in Nigeria or Ghana or South Africa, one of the other African countries. And when they want to do an ad for a local market, they're usually looking for someone who could do that local accent or that local dialect basically. So that's how the plethora of that work came about. And of course, once you realize that that's what people want and that's who you are anyway, I'm African, you know, it's work that you can do with your eyes closed. I mean, I don't have to think about it. I just open my mouth and it comes, I don't have to put on the accent. It's me really. And the more people get to know about what you can do, the more of course they come looking for you.
Steve Folland:
And so did you change the way you were marketing yourself?
Tim Odofin:
Yeah. When you first start out, you don't have a lot of work to showcase. So if you have a website, then it might not have a full body of work, but as you go on, you do more work. So you have more work to showcase on your website. When I started off, I was working in commercials only, but after a while I started doing corporate work. So, then I'd have a corporate demo. And when you start doing e-learning, then you have an e-learning demo and so on. As you go along, you get to update it to your website, your social media channels, because it's just a way of letting people know more about yourself in terms of the kind of work you have done or are doing or are capable of doing, shall we say?
Steve Folland:
I noticed that you've got awards winner and finalist badges on your website. How important are awards for you?
Tim Odofin:
I think they're important because they are marketing tools. Here in the UK, we've got two main awards. We've got the Vox awards and the One Voice awards. And if I use the One Voice as an example, they normally get about three or four thousand entries a year. And for you to get nominated, it usually means you're somewhere in the top 10% and for you to win it's the top 3% or something like that - these nominations are quite tough to come by because the competition is absolutely fierce. So to get nominated, it's quite good - number one is for your ego, but more importantly, for a marketing perspective, it's something that you can use and the awards body obviously does marketing as well.
Tim Odofin:
And it's a chance to meet your peers. It's a chance to meet people that will hire you. It's not uncommon to go to an event and end up sitting on the same table as a producer or a network director, creative director, that kind of thing, and build up a relationship that way. Or if you win, when you come off stage at the after party, you've got lots of people who might already know your name and come to speak to you. So it's a great way of building relationships and it's a good chance to see your friends as well. Because like I said, voiceover is quite solitary.
Tim Odofin:
But from a marketing perspective, they can prove very useful. If you win, you've got a shiny badge or you've got an award trophy to maybe use on your social media or for other marketing purposes. But they're not the be all and end all, don't get me wrong. I mean, there are producers who they don't care how many awards you've won or how many nominations you've got, what they want to know is what can you do for me? How good are you with this particular job that I want? And winning awards are nice, but winning awards don't pay the bills. What pays the bills is getting out and marketing yourself - getting people to know who you are, what you can do and staying in regular contact with people, you know, and just being yourself and being easy to work with really, because nobody wants to work with anyone that's difficult. Who's got time for that?
Steve Folland:
You said about how your work can be very last minute. And also that there's a certain concern, you know, like what if I'm not available now they'll go somewhere else. They might not come back. So how does that fit with you in terms of taking time off?
Tim Odofin:
Well, nowadays we're hearing a lot more about mental health, especially in this past 18 months, where the line between work and home is just being blurred completely, or it doesn't even exist, but it's one that you've got to look after yourself. You cannot work flat out all the time. Especially with doing voice over, you need to take care of your voice. And if you're not doing that by getting adequate rest, adequate exercise, eating properly - after a while it's going to show. So it's just one that when you build up relationships with people, if I'm going away for argument's sake, your regular clients, you tell them that you're going away and you tell them when you're going away. And how long are you going to be away for?
Tim Odofin:
And if people have got jobs that they need you to do, what usually happens is they'll send you a plethora of jobs before you go away. And then you make it very clear whilst you're away - you have your out of office on to say I'm away for this amount of time and I'll be back on this date. It's not uncommon in voiceover, I mean, I've done it in the past myself where I've gone on holiday and I've taken recording equipment with me on the off chance that, that national commercial that you've been waiting for suddenly comes along because it's not uncommon for you to go on holiday and then all of a sudden, a shed load of work comes in that, you know, you might not be able to do, but each to their own, some people will always take equipment along.
Tim Odofin:
I mean, I've set up a recording studio in hotel bathrooms before with lots of duvets and towels and things like that. But also, if you provide a good enough service for people and they know you and they trust you when you're away, if they want it they wait - because it's happened to me before where I've received an email whilst I was away. And I said, you know, I'm away at the moment. I'll be back in four or five days. And the client has said, well, no problem. Here's the script. When you come back, we can pick it up from there.
Steve Folland:
And how did you cope with the financial side of running a business?
Tim Odofin:
That's a learning curve and it's a continuous learning curve because many of us might think of ourselves as creatives. But I think what I've learnt over the time is that we have to think of ourselves as business people first and creative second, because if I use voiceover as an example, when you're behind the mic, that's where you're making money, because you're doing jobs that you get paid for. But what you've got to do is you've got to do a lot of work to get yourself behind the mic. There's a lot of admin to be done. There's a lot of marketing - whether it's updating your website, your social media, going to networking events. There's a whole load of things that you've got to do to get that work in. So when you first start out in voiceover, it might be 95, 5.
Tim Odofin:
So 5% of time behind the mic and the other 95% of the time, what you're doing is you're going out and looking for the work. When I say going, I don't always mean going out, but you're doing things to get the work in. But as you go along, of course, then the percentages go up and go down - it might be 20% behind the mic, 80% looking for the work and 30, 70, 60, 40, just dependent, really.
Steve Folland:
And how did you know what to charge?
Tim Odofin:
Tthere's a body in the UK called Equity who have set amount of rates in terms of whether it's a radio advert, TV, advert, etc. And then some organisations have gotten together and provided a rate card that generally you can use as a guidance.
Tim Odofin:
And then there's other jobs that it's just the case of getting as much information as you can, in terms of what type of job it is, where it's going to be used, how long it's going to be used for. Because I think sometimes the problem that we suffer as creatives is when you give somebody a price, sometimes they might not understand how you're arriving at that price because they're thinking, what do you mean? Okay, so voiceover is talking, isn't it? But... It is talking, but it's not at the same time. Because if it was talking, then everybody would be doing it. There's a lot more skill involved.
Tim Odofin:
And they might just be thinking in terms of time, because you might do a job and it might take you, let's just say three minutes to record - but the three minutes that you record, the client isn't really paying for that. What they're paying for is the length of time it took you to get yourself to the level that you could record such a job in three minutes, and then the job might be used on a national TV advert for argument's sake, you might be used on a national radio commercial, which is going to be heard by millions and millions of people. Whereas you might just do a video that may only end up on a local channel where the audience is not as much. And remember new media is coming in all the time. So it's about the value that you're providing for your clients.
Steve Folland:
As those resources that say what you should be charging mustered give you confidence. And also means that everybody's doing a similar kind of rate.
Tim Odofin:
To an extent. I mean, in the creative industry, people can charge what they like really. The barrier to entry to some of our creative industries is very low in terms of what you might have to shell out in terms of equipment. And people can start off at a low rate just to get their foot in the door. And at the same time, remember we deal with different types of clients who have different budgets. So some clients have very high budgets and some clients might have very low budgets. Some clients might not necessarily wish to pay X amount for X, Y, Z. It just depends really. And this is why I keep talking about relationships because relationships are important.
Tim Odofin:
Simply because once you've gotten a relationship with a client and they know you quite well, they know the caliber of the work that you can do for them. And they're getting value for their money. If, for argument's sake, as you go along in that relationship, you were to raise your price. Because if you are looking to buy something today, you couldn't most likely pay what you pay 10 years ago for it, because that's just the nature of society. Life moves forward. There's inflation. The cost of living goes up, the cost of goods and services goes up. So when you have good relationships with people over the course of a five, ten year relationship, - as you go forward in that relationship, if when you inform your client that you're maybe raising your price for argument's sake, clients understand that because their costs go up, they raise their prices as well. So they understand that, but it's just about open communication, really.
Steve Folland:
You mentioned having a family, getting them to bed, going off and doing voiceovers. How's the work-life balance. Now that you've been going at it full time for a few years?
Tim Odofin:
In terms of the balance... in the beginning of being freelance full-time you might just work all the hours the Lord sends, but after a while, you have to kind of put those demarcations in, in terms of, you know, okay, I'm going to stop working at this time, because if not, what will happen is you might be at your computer all day, all night. And that's not really healthy for you. It's not healthy for your business, really, because then you just keep going and suffer burnout.
Tim Odofin:
So it's just about trying to have those clear demarcations and say, right, okay, I'm going to finish work today. At this time you might finish and then maybe have to go back into the studio, maybe at nine o'clock or 10 o'clock for 20 minutes or half an hour. It just depends. But it's a work in progress.
Steve Folland:
If you could tell your younger self, one thing about being freelance, what would that be?
Tim Odofin:
I think I'd tell myself that you got to believe in yourself constantly. If I'd done that, I probably would've done it earlier actually, simply because sometimes, you know, you worry about how things are going to go - will it work? Will it not work? But I would tell myself, go for it a bit earlier.
Tim Odofin:
And as you go along the way, things that you don't know, you can learn. And just not be scared because what is there to fear, apart from fear itself? Half the time, these things that we're afraid of Steve, that we think, you know, won't happen, or, you know, it's just too big for me. They don't really - we spend so much time on social media, or TV wathing people achieving their dreams. And the truth is there's absolutely no reason why we can't follow our dreams and achieve our dreams. All we've got to do is make decisions and stick with those decisions when things... there's always going to be ups and downs. So when things aren't going well, you just hang in there and it will pass. And we roll with the good times.
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