Every client is a learning experience - Illustrator Kendyll Hillegas
About this episode…
Every client is a learning experience - Illustrator Kendyll Hillegas
Chronic pain had left Kendyll unable to work. Stuck at home, depressed, her sister gave her a watercolour set, saying ‘If Henri Matisse can paint from bed, then you can too”.
And she did. Every single day. Sharing her illustrations of food and household objects on Tumblr.
Kendyll’s fine art education had helped her find relief from the pain. Unexpectedly, it also helped her find work when a celebrity chef with a magazine got in touch. A year and a half after that first commission Kendyll had the confidence to realise this was actually a career. She was a freelance illsustrator.
From dealing with clients, budgets, contracts, deadlines, health, starting a family, diversifying her income… there’s been a lot to learn. And each client gives her a chance to do just that. Now Kendyll paints a picture of life for her being freelance as she chats to Steve in the first episode of Season 15. Enjoy!
Read the highlights in the next tab.
EVALUATE EACH AND EVERY EXPERIENCE
It’s okay not to know how to do everything. It’s okay to not even known what you don’t know. But we can all learn by evaluating each client experience as we go.
“I think an attitude that I've had from the beginning that has really served me well from the time it sort of clicked in my head that I could do this for a job: I have looked at every single client as a learning experience. And I still do. I think that puts me in a really good frame of mind to evaluate each and every experience.”
TAKE CONTROL AND COMMUNICATE
Kendyll realised clients didn’t always know how to work with an illustrator. And all illustrators have different processes. So instead of waiting and wading through the confusion she would share her process and keep communicating.
“I kind of shifted my posture towards clients and instead of waiting for them to make the structure, I brought the structure. I started trying to get clear about what my process was and trying to articulate that more clearly for clients and getting really good at communication with clients. And that's been something that has been just invaluable in terms of avoiding painful situations, you know, getting stuck in a not ideal working relationship with a client. Most of those can be avoided with good communication.”
WHAT DO CLIENTS ACTUALLY WANT?
Kendyll got strategic about the self-initiated work she was doing. She created for what she thought clients would want to commission and started sharing that.
“A lot of people will just keep making work, but they don't actually stop and think who would want to buy this work, or how does this work solve somebody else's problem? Or what market does this work fit into? So yeah, I was making lots of self-initiated work and then being strategic about how the self-initiated work could fit into an existing market...”
CONCRETE PRICING INFORMATION
Knowing how to price your work is tricky, but you don’t have to just guess. Most industries have publications or blogs with guides, or of course you can ask other freelancers. It makes a real difference in earning the right amount, but also in having the confidence to ask for it.
“Get some concrete pricing information because it just makes a world of difference when you feel confident knowing instead of just stabbing in the dark - thinking this is what something should cost - having a concrete idea of what other people in your industry are charging is just so, so helpful.”
BEING FIRM BUT FRIENDLY
Kendyll is confident to stand her ground on what can be achieved for a client’s budget. But she will never just say No. She will always try to offer a different solution. She never wants someone to leave her feeling stupid, or cheap. Part of that is about being a good human, but it’s also good business.
“I think you can be really firm with your budget and your value and you can also be a really kind person. And part of the reason for that, yes, is trying to be kind, but also, you don't know where somebody is going to end up in five years or ten years. Even if the end result is I'm not going to be able to work within their budget, I still want them to feel positive after their interaction with me.”
CREATING courses
Kendyll’s become a top teacher on education platform Skillshare with her courses. They take a lot of time to create but if you’re thinking of creating courses to diversify your income, Kendyll has this advice…
“ Definitely start on a place like Skillshare. Start in one where you have an audience there. It's just like, if you're going to have a free-standing, standalone shop on your website versus something on Etsy. If you don't have a big audience on your own, starting with a marketplace that has a built in audience can be really helpful.”
Listen to the episode now to hear Kendyll’s full story.
“Love the thing you’re doing.
“It's going to be hard, there'll be a lot of challenges and you have to really love the thing that you're doing if you're going to stick with it and to become successful at it.”
Kendyll Hillegas, freelance illustrator
More from KENDYLL HILLEGAS
Transcript of the Being Freelance podcast with Steve Folland and Freelance Illustrator Kendyll Hillegas
Steve Folland:
As ever, how about we get started hearing how you got started being freelance?
Kendyll Hillegas:
So I went to school for painting. It was more of a fine arts program. Didn't really have any commercial component to it. It was just learning how to kind of like a classical oil painting program and graduated from that and had, well, basically no idea what to do with it. I kind of started out thinking, you know, I'll try to create a large body of work and get in a gallery, which is basically all that you know to do when you've come from a fine art program. And hit a few bumps in the road, both related to art and then also really mainly related to just my personal life. I ended up actually getting pretty sick right after college. I hope it's okay to go into this. This is like the primary thing that got me going with freelance... And ended up really, very ill and had a really hard time getting diagnosed.
Kendyll Hillegas:
And ended up, probably eight or nine months after graduating deciding that I was going to have nothing to do with art ever again, and that I was done with that, done with making stuff, and I needed to do something, you know, quote unquote 'important'. So I started working as a tutor and as a community organizer. And I did that for four years and that whole time I was still dealing with health stuff, intermittently and undiagnosed, and eventually did get diagnosed and was able to get on a treatment regimen and the doctor who I was seeing at the time strongly advised that I should walk away from the job that I was doing, which at that time was mostly organizing. And it was working 60 or 70 hours a week.
Kendyll Hillegas:
And it was extremely stressful, doing good work, but it was really very stressful. At that point my partner had a regular job and had health insurance, you know, we're in the U S so that's like a big concern is being able to maintain health insurance. So I was able to walk away from my job for a time and just found myself sitting at home alone and was actually pretty depressed. Of course, that makes sense. And it was my younger sister actually, who saw that I was struggling and got me as a gift, a set of watercolor pencils and some watercolor paper and said, I don't remember her exact words, but it was something along the lines of 'if Henri Matisse can paint from bed, then you can too'.
Kendyll Hillegas:
And so I just started painting. You know, when I had graduated, I really wanted to make important work about 'deep human feelings'. And so I felt like I had to paint important subjects like people and landscapes and that sort of thing, or abstract stuff. And when was I sick - by the time I had gotten to that point, I was just so knocked down that I had no pretensions. I was completely humbled and I just started painting stuff that was fun for me to paint. So food and things around the house. And so for me, my freelance journey really was by accident. And I didn't even know it at the time when I was starting to create those paintings, but that was kind of the beginning of it because I started putting them online. And the only reason I was putting them online, and this is back in Tumblr days and I would just would put, put one on Tumblr every day.
Kendyll Hillegas:
And it was purely just to have something to focus on and to get myself motivated because otherwise I would just be like sitting in the house by myself doing nothing. So I was painting a different food item or sometimes like ordinary objects: shoes, pill, bottles, those sorts of things. And I put it on Tumblr every day. And after about eight months of doing that, I got an inquiry from a client and it was, they're now defunct, but it was Lucky Peach magazine. And it was a really cool magazine while it was around - it was David Chang who does like the Momofuku restaurants in New York, so he's kind of a celebrity chef, and he had made this magazine and it was all about art and food. So that was my first client. That was my first commission. And after I did that, I sort of thought it was a one-off and I was like, oh, that's cool. That was neat. That that happened.
Kendyll Hillegas:
And then a little while later I had another client, another commission that was for packaging illustration. And after that one, it kind of clicked in my head. And I thought like, oh, this is something that people do. Like, this is a job that people have and you can work and you can make this. Because I had come from the fine art background. So really just had no concept of the commercial art world at all. So at that point I started doing some research and kind of trying to figure out where my work might fit. But that was basically the whole launching point. And then it took probably like another year and a half after that, to where I felt like I was going to call myself a freelance illustrator and then another year or so after that, to where it was more stable. So I had a very kind of windy atypical road.
Steve Folland:
It's like it found you.. So eight months of daily posting to Tumblr as well. So what year was this?
Kendyll Hillegas:
This was late 2012 when it started. So the first client came through in 2013.
Steve Folland:
When that client a high profile client really came knocking, did you have any clue, like how to respond, what to charge a contract or...?
Kendyll Hillegas:
I had no idea what to charge and they had a budget and they told me 'the fee would be this'. And 'cause I had no concept for what it should be, I was of course, like, 'oh yeah, sounds great!' But I was very anxious about how the process would go. Like, you know - do I show them a sketch or what phase do I show them the sketch? How do I let them make revisions? Basically the process of working with the client was totally opaque to me. I didn't really understand how to go about that. I think there was less information available online then. And there's multiple levels of not knowing something: sometimes you don't know something and then sometimes you don't even know what you don't know, you can't even look for it. So at that point I was so lost. I had really no concept and I just kind of put one foot in front of the other and stumbled through that first commission. And I'm very thankful to my former self that I even said yes to the commission because I had no idea what I was doing.
Steve Folland:
When you got another client get in touch and perhaps another one after that, did you then start to put yourself out there? Did you change anything or did you simply keep going on Tumblr?
Kendyll Hillegas:
I think an attitude that I've had from the beginning that has really served me well from the time it sort of clicked in my head that I could do this for a job: I have looked at every single client as a learning experience. And I still do. I think that puts me in a really good frame of mind to evaluate each and every experience. And of course in the beginning when you're just like, or at least for me, when I was tripping all over myself, there were plenty of good learning experiences. So I would say the two things I changed the most were how I worked with the client. And it became clear to me relatively early on that clients would look to me to direct. Most clients would look to me to direct the process.
Kendyll Hillegas:
Even if I was working with an art director, you know, somebody who is really familiar with the industry and who knows what they're doing, which is not always the case. You know, sometimes you work with a founder or somebody who doesn't work with artists all that often, but even if you are working with somebody who works with artists quite a bit, they still rely on you to tell them what your process is like because each artist is different. So that became clear to me relatively early on. So I started trying to get clear about what my process was and trying to articulate that more clearly for clients and getting really good at communication with clients. And that's been something that has been just invaluable in terms of avoiding painful situations, you know, getting stuck in a not ideal working relationship with a client. I feel by far and away, most of those can be avoided with good communication.
Kendyll Hillegas:
So that was one thing: that I kind of shifted my posture towards clients and instead of waiting for them to make the structure, I brought the structure. And then in terms of like reaching out to clients, I did do a little bit of that. At the time I remember thinking I did quite a lot because I sent out like five or six emails and now I hear what other people have done, the people who send out hundreds or thousands or whatever, and I'm like 'on no I've just never done that'. Really what my focus was on was making work that the clients would want. So I did send out a few odd emails here and there, but mostly what I would do is I would look at food magazines and I would say, oh, look, they're doing food from this kind of a perspective, or they're doing these sorts of subjects.
Kendyll Hillegas:
And then I would try to make work. Self-initiated work essentially. I was absolutely prolific with self-initiated work. That's not a braggy thing. I was just making tons of tons and tons and tons of self-initiated work. And if there was a particular niche or genre that I wanted to get into, I would pay really close attention to the kind of work that they used, both the kinds of subjects, the way that it was presented and trying to make work that would fit in that category. Obviously not copying anybody else, but just like aiming it at the same kind of target, if that makes sense. So I always did a lot more of that.
Steve Folland:
But still relying on people to find you.
Kendyll Hillegas:
Yeah. In those days that was most of what I did. And I would do the proactive stuff that I did in those days. Now it feels a little bit silly to say, but I would submit to different art Tumblrs. So, I guess blogs basically, but they would showcase different artists. So I don't know how much that helped or not, but in the early days it was always just people and it's still actually to this day, continues to be people finding me. I think, as I mentioned, I haven't done a lot of the emailing, but for the ones that I have sent, I think I have had one job come through from proactively emailing. And I know that it works great for some people but for me it's always been better...
Kendyll Hillegas:
I've always focused more on making the kind of work that I think that the clients want and then putting it out there really regularly. So I, of course was not only on Tumblr - at a certain point I transitioned and did more on Instagram. I started a YouTube channel in 2016 and I've never looked at that as a way to make money. Some people do make money from their YouTube channels, but for me it has always been a way that I can connect with the community, the community that I'm a part of and give back. And it was actually very practical, like when my Tumblr follpowing started growing I was getting lots of questions, mostly art related questions, how to draw this or that, or how I made the colors, do some specific thing. And I, I got the same questions over and over.
Kendyll Hillegas:
So I wanted to make videos to answer them more easily. And I mentioned that because I think actually making a YouTube channel has also benefited my search engine performance. So I've noticed that, you know, if you search for like 'realistic food illustration', some very generic term, I am almost always one of the first hits to come up. After the fact I learned that Google will sometimes prioritize content for people who have a presence on one of their platforms. So yeah, I think that that helped. But yeah, the proactive outreach, I've done a few emails here and there. And then I did one postcard mailer, which was very small. I think that this was like a couple of years ago and it was to maybe 30 people. And I didn't really get responses from any of that. Now that being said, I am actually trying to get better about doing email stuff. So if we talk again, next time, maybe I will have sent out more emails, but that's one of my goals is to try that. Because I feel like the scale that I've done it at, isn't a fair test because, you know, from what I understand for folks who have done a lot more of it, you know, they're talking hundreds and thousands of emails, as opposed to, you know, my dozens,
Steve Folland:
You mentioned your health very early on in this. How has creating this freelance life worked alongside that?
Kendyll Hillegas:
For me, it's been great. And I don't think this is true for everybody. And I didn't even realize it was true for me, but I absolutely loved drawing. And it's one of the few things that I can do even when I feel really ill. And for me, chronic pain was a big component of what I dealt with. And even after I was on treatment that continued to persist until I made more lifestyle changes. But even when I was having a day where I was in pretty severe pain, you know, the kind of pain that would have made me want to call out sick for my organizing job, because I couldn't be standing up in front of hundreds of people leading a training, but I could be sitting down at my desk or more honestly on the couch and painting.
Kendyll Hillegas:
And for some reason getting started was always hard if I didn't feel good, but once I got started, I would just disconnect from it. I don't know how to describe it, besides that. And I've talked with other people who have chronic health struggles, and I know that that's not the case for everybody, but for me it seemed like this absolute miracle that like, oh, wow, I've hit upon this secret of this is like the one thing I can do to escape from the pain. And because of that, I felt pretty confident that I could do it as a vocation. Like I knew that I could work even when I didn't feel well. And that made me feel more confident about accepting assignments and actually doing it as a job.
Steve Folland:
And if you don't mind me asking, because you mentioned health insurance as well, and in the U S obviously that's a big thing for you. Do you factor that into your pricing and your business?
Kendyll Hillegas:
So I probably should factor that into my price, but my partner has health insurance. And since I have been doing freelance work, I've been lucky enough to be on his. So that, that has been kind of the way that we've taken care of it, but that's something I've talked to a lot of up and coming freelancers who are trying to get started and been very transparent about the fact that that was a big privilege that I had, being able to be on my partner's health insurance, whereas that's something for a lot of folks when they're first getting started in the U S that's a really big impediment because it is quite expensive to buy health insurance. And for me, with the health stuff that I had, it would have been absolutely cost prohibitive to have to buy it on the open market. So, yeah, I've just been lucky in that respect.
Steve Folland:
So it was a year and a half after that first pitch that you felt like a freelance illustrator?
Kendyll Hillegas:
Yeah, I think that's about right.
Steve Folland:
How did it start to change at that point? You had Tumblr, and I know you've touched upon adding bits and pieces, but you know, if people go to your website now, clearly there's a lot more to it...
Kendyll Hillegas:
So I made a website, I have an Etsy shop and actually some clients had found me on Etsy. That was never a huge component of what I did, but I created the website. I started trying to get more strategic about the kind of work that I put together. If anybody wants to watch it, I have actually made a very detailed video about the timeline in terms of like, which clients I got when, and even like when it was, when I would have counted it like a full-time income. Cause it did take me, I think, longer than it takes a lot of people, but it was very kind of incremental, like growing bit by bit from like end of 2013 all the way up through 2016.
Kendyll Hillegas:
And then in 2017, just like in terms of revenue, it doubled. And then in 2018, it doubled again. And that was when I was like, oh, okay. Okay. This is legit, I guess. It's always legit. I don't mean... But I was like, oh wow, okay. I'm actually really doing this. I don't know if there are listeners who have dealt with chronic health stuff at a very young age, but when you're in the years where you're like, well, everyone else expects you to be healthy and you expect that of yourself and having that rug just pulled out from under you, it really makes you, or it made me, it really hits your confidence. So for the first number of years, I was just happy to be doing anything.
Kendyll Hillegas:
Because I had kind of expected, wow, am I going to have to go on disability? Or am I not going to be able to work? What is my life going to look like essentially? So I just took it as a bonus. I was like, this is great. I'm bringing anything, any income in, and then, you know, 2016, 2017, 2018, when it was really ramping up, that's when I realized, oh, okay this is what I'm doing. Because of having the incremental growth, it's hard for me to point to any one thing that's like, this was the thing that made the difference beyond just being regular with the self-initiated work and then also strategic with the self-initiated work. So, you know, a lot of people will just keep making work, but they don't actually stop and think who would want to buy this work, or how does this work solve somebody else's problem? Or what, what market does this work fit into? I think a lot, a lot of visual artists particularly have that challenge. So yeah, making lots of self-initiated work and then being strategic about how the self-initiated work could fit into an existing market.
Steve Folland:
What about your work-life balance? I often say that phrase, but for you it obviously sounded even more important. Obviously you've been doing this for quite a long time now.
Kendyll Hillegas:
Yeah. I think I've gotten better at it. And, and I can point to one thing in that respect that changed it. And for me, that was having kids because I had my first daughter in 2017. And prior to that between between 2013 and 2017, as I was kind of getting my feet under me, I always felt like I was behind and I had started behind everybody else. And I didn't really quite know where I was going. I just had this pretty intense... like a fire under my whatever to get moving. And that translated into me spending a lot of time beyond basically anytime I could, I was working on something. And the line between work and personal life was really not present because I also loved what I was doing. And I was ironically, struggling more with health stuff at that time.
Kendyll Hillegas:
And focusing on painting and painting as much as possible was like a huge distraction for me from the pain. So I actually was not very good at a work-life balance with my freelance stuff, with art. And then in 2017 when Penelope was born, two things happened. One being pregnant actually put me into remission, which was great. So I have been incredibly healthy. And what my immunologist says is I may end up with that coming back at some point, but they can't really tell me for sure. And basically every year that goes by that I don't have symptoms, it's an indication that if, and when it does come back, at least it won't be as bad as before. So I'm off of a lot of the medications that I was on, which is just great and I more or less feel pretty normal.
Kendyll Hillegas:
So that was incredible. And a surprise. Then the other thing that having kids changed was that I became aware that I really needed to have more of a clear demarcation between work and personal life because I wanted to give that kind of attention to my family, but I also really, really love my work. I really, really love what I do. So what it has looked like since 2017 is I would say like an increasing separation between personal life and work life. And it didn't happen all at once. You know, it's kind of been gradual. So like at first it was like, I, I only had a sitter for certain times. I had very limited childcare initially, and then I would be working during the nap times, but I never really tried to work when I was also with my kids. Yeah. The more time has gone on now, I have even more separation because I have a studio out of the house that I got in the very beginning of 2020. And so now I work here and the kids are in childcare and that means that when I'm here, I'm at work. And then when I'm at home, I'm at home. And I really try to be pretty strict with that, except in those rare instances where I do over commit. And then I end up with a deadline that has to happen. Or of course, you know, you lose childcare or whatever, in which case, PBS to the rescue - public television with a quote unquote educational programming. Yeah, having kids has really helped motivate me to have that work-life balance and that separation and yeah, that's something, one of the many things I'm grateful for about having had children.
Steve Folland:
You mentioned at one point about, you know, sometimes if I over-commit and I'd have to do this.. How do you manage that workload and saying no? Or maybe you say yes to everyone?
Kendyll Hillegas:
Yeah. It's kind of like when you're overconfident. So for a while, I'll be going along and I've not over committed to anything. And I've had like a really good workload and be feeling really confident about my abilities to execute things and get things done. And then, you know, another project will come up and then a regular client will pop back in and there'll be this kind of convergence of events. And I'll say, yeah, I can handle that. And I'll agree to that. And then we'll lose childcare for a day or somebody will get sick or the client actually wants more than they initially said - some confluence of events will happen. Like this happened two weeks ago where I was just working the entire weekend and that was many different things that collided to make that happen.
Kendyll Hillegas:
And whenever it does happen, the few times a year that it happens, I just am super motivated and I commit to myself, I'm never doing that again. That's awful. And then I go six or eight months, and then it happens again. But, I think overall keeping the balance is primarily a function of of having done this for a longer time now. So for quite a while, I would under book myself because I really was afraid of ever having to say to a client that I was late... and I still have never turned in work late - I'm kind of like pathologically on time with stuff, but I was very afraid of having to do that or of putting forth that image of like not being organized or whatever.
Kendyll Hillegas:
And I think for a lot of creative people who are not naturally organized - I'm not a naturally organized person, it's, something I've really struggled with my whole life. So it's like kind of a soft spot. It's a learned skill. So I would just constantly under book and turn down a lot of jobs in those first few years because I would worry, oh, am I already over committed? And the more experience I've gotten, the more I realize I can handle quite a lot more than I thought I could, which is great. And then I also just have this... I don't know if this makes sense or if you relate to this at all, but I feel like when you're first starting out, you're so uncertain and then the more confident than you get, you just have this sense that it's going to be okay.
Kendyll Hillegas:
And I do have that feeling now, like even if I'm committed to a bunch of projects and I lose childcare, I know it's going to be okay, I'll figure out a way to make it work. I'll juggle with my partner or I'll stay up late or whatever. I know that it's going to be okay. So I feel like that confidence or that sense of what my abilities actually are that has enabled me to be fairly realistic most of the time in what I commit to. And I never commit to things where I'm like... if the client says, I want this by three days from now, and it's a four week project, I just never commit. I would never do that. I'm very confident to just say, no, sorry, this is gonna be how long it takes. I hope we can work together, but this is what it would look like if you want to work with me. Yeah. So I think it's having the experience, knowing what to expect from yourself and kind of what problems can typically come up with the client and then also having that sense or that trust that, which is also, I guess, a kind of confidence in yourself - that things are going to be okay. That you'll be able to figure it out, even if there are some bumps in the road. Yeah.
Steve Folland:
There was a line on your website, which really caught my eye because I've looked at a lot of freelance websites and I'm not sure I've ever seen this particular line where you said, "I'm committed to working within the budget whenever possible."
Kendyll Hillegas:
Absolutely. Some of it's being bitten by scope creep, which was a huge issue for me early on. And I think I've gotten a lot better at dealing with that. But then it's also something else - a situation that will come up fairly frequently is a client will come to me wanting something and then they'll have a budget in mind that is completely out of line with what they say that they want. There's no way to really connect those two things. And I do still try to find a way to make it work for them. If the budget's very low, usually it's me suggesting 'how about you reuse this one image - you pay a licensing fee and reuse this image that I've already created', or I'll recommend like what they would need to come up to, to have a custom illustration created.
Kendyll Hillegas:
And then, you know, other ways that I can sometimes shrink a budget is if they are really flexible on the timeline and they can give me a really long time, you know, like four weeks, six weeks to work on something and I can just squeeze it in here and there, or, you know, for me, size is a pretty big thing. So if they're wanting something that's really, really detailed and done at a very large size, like 20 inches or something like that, and they have a small budget, I would say, well, how do you feel about me doing something that's four by four inches? And so I don't just automatically say no or that I can't work with you - both because I really just, as a human being, I always want to be kind, I think you can be really firm with your budget and your value and you can also be a really kind person.
Kendyll Hillegas:
And I try to do both and I find that the clients that have the really unrealistic budgets are usually clients who don't work with illustrators very often, you know, it's somebody who.. they're a family business or they're a startup, or they have never commissioned an illustration. I had one come through the other day, I won't name them of course, but they wanted to pay $200 US dollars for six, 8x10 really realistic illustrations. And it was a minimum of 40 hours worth of work - minimum. And then, you know, that's, of course not even accounting for... illustration is priced, not always, but it really should be priced by both how much it costs to make it and then also the usage fee, how much, value the client is going to be getting out of it, what they're going to use it for.
Kendyll Hillegas:
So it would be, you know, 40 hours worth of work without even considering the usage that they're going to get out of it. And they were wanting to pay $200. So I did recommend potentially using some illustrations, although even with that, they wouldn't have been able to work within the $200 budget, but I try never to just have my response back be 'no'. It's usually kind of a "no, and...", Or "that won't really work, but let's try this..." And part of the reason for that, as I mentioned, yes, is the trying to be kind, but then it's also, you don't know where somebody is going to end up in five years or ten years. From a very practical standpoint, this probably will even sound a little bit mercenary, but that's part of the reason why it's so important to be kind is, is because yeah, you don't know. I want somebody to be left with a good impression and to not feel bad about themselves as a person, after having dealt with me. I think being told, 'oh, you're cheap', or 'you don't have enough budget' or whatever, like that will not make somebody feel good. And so even if the end result is I'm not going to be able to work within their budget, I still want them to feel positive after their interaction with me.
Steve Folland:
I love that. So have you consciously sort of built up a library of images that you can license out to people, as you say?
Kendyll Hillegas:
Um, I would say I've accidentally built it. It's more just a function of having been so prolific with self-initiated work. And then also for most commercial work, I still retain copyright. So I've licensed a specific use for a client, but especially for editorial stuff, their usage, their license is something like six months to a year usually. And then after that, I can use it for whatever I want. And then, you know, commercial stuff like for packaging or advertising or whatever is a bit different, but even so, many of those clients are only granted a particular use. So if there's something that's in a totally different arena, I could potentially license that illustration to somebody else who, you know, of course would pose no competition. Yeah, a combination of having done the large amount of self-initiated work and then having kept my copyright.
Steve Folland:
Are there other ways that you have income coming in?
Kendyll Hillegas:
Absolutely. Yeah. Client work is - I just did this math the other day. I think client work is like 72% or something like that.
Steve Folland:
Precise.
Kendyll Hillegas:
Well, I finally just got an accountant this year. So that was a big step for me. I incorporated as an LLC and I'm working with a business accountant now. Just cause it's gotten a little bit too unwieldy to manage it myself. Yeah. So client work is the majority. And then probably the biggest one after that is classes. So I make Skillshare classes and put those online and those are really kind of the two big buckets. Other smaller things - I get a tiny, tiny amount of YouTube ad revenue, but again, that's like, I put no effort into that. I don't really do sponsors because for the scale of channel that I have, it doesn't make sense. It's more work than it would be worth.
Kendyll Hillegas:
And then occasionally I'll do like probably once a year, I'll do some sort of big retail thing. Like I'll do a studio sale where I try to clear out a bunch of originals. So there's a small portion that comes from from retail. But, you know, when I was getting started earlier on, that was a much bigger proportion. And I had a pretty active Etsy shop. It wasn't ever, like, there are really big Etsy shops and people who are very serious and doing orders every day,. For me, when my Etsy store was like really, really kicking. It was like probably five or six orders a week, so never anything massive. But now it's just too much to keep that up regularly and be doing client work. I feel like you kind of have to pick a lane.
Kendyll Hillegas:
So now my shop is basically on autopilot. So I have a print on demand thing, kind of like Society 6, but it's integrated to Etsy and that just takes care of itself. So yeah, it's mostly client work and then some online classes and I think doing that was a really good decision for me. And I recommend that to other creative people all the time, because what it gives you is some amount of stability. Even if it's not going to be the biggest paycheck, there's going to be something every month and you know the date that it's going to happen, which is not the case with clients. And then also I have tried to maintain a balance with the types of clients that I work with. So I have two kind of ongoing, larger editorial clients where I know I'm going to be doing stuff for them every month.
Kendyll Hillegas:
And then the stuff for packaging clients, which is kind of the other big bucket - packaging and advertising that comes in waves, you know, there'll be a whole bunch of it. And then, you know, a little bit of a lull. And then a whole bunch of it and then a little bit of a lull. But having the different streams of income is great and then having different types of clients if possible. So not being all concentrated in one niche, trying to have your experience and your clients spread across multiple niches, I think can really help balance things out with respect to freelance illustration.
Steve Folland:
When it comes to Skillshare, how much time does it take? And first of all, we should say what kind of thing are you doing on there? Is it a short course?
Kendyll Hillegas:
Yep. Short. So usually they're about an hour, although I am in processes of making one that is going to be longer, it's a little bit of an experiment. But I got into Skillshare... Somebody reached out to me and asked me to make a class and I had never considered it before and I made a class and it felt like a more involved version, like a longer, more involved YouTube video. And I started doing those in 2017 or 2018. At first I had this goal that I wanted to do one every month, which was an absolutely bonkers goal. I don't know where that idea from, but I quickly realized that that wasn't gonna happen. So then I had the goal of doing two a year. And what I have realized is really I can manage one about like every eight or nine months. So it takes about the same time as growing a human baby.
Kendyll Hillegas:
And it's not quite as much work having done both. I can tell you, it is definitely more work being pregnant, but it is definitely labor intensive. And if you're going to make something that's good. Yeah, it's challenging. I think it actually hits on some of the same pain points that having an Etsy shop does where, you know, I think the artists that I see who do really well with online classes and who are just churning them out, that is the main thing they do. And with anything you become more streamlined with what you do more consistently. So for me, because most of what I'm spending my time doing is client work. But that is where I have most of my streamlining, most of my efficiency. And every time I go to make a Skillshare class, there are certain things I always hit the same bumps in the road.
Kendyll Hillegas:
I'm like, oh yeah, I have to deal with this camera setting again. I know how to use a camera and filming equipment, but I'm not like really good at it because I haven't ever had to get really good at it because I'm only doing it intermittently, you know? And when I do stuff for YouTube, I just kind of throw that together. I'm not even that careful with it because it's just kind of a fun thing for me. But you know, if I make a Skillshare class, it has to look good. The sound has to be good. There are much higher standards. So I, I'm pretty confident that if I did them more often, they would feel easier to me. But because they are this kind of intermittent thing, it always feels a bit like pulling teeth to get one done.
Kendyll Hillegas:
But I can say unequivocally that it's been a good thing. And if you're looking for like a concrete number in terms of like how long it takes for me, I would say I plan on one class taking probably somewhere between 25 to 35 hours worth of work. Probably even closer to 40 hours on some of them. It depends on the class. So it's not a little time investment. And then that's just like to make the class - that's just the planning and the filming stuff. Then you also have to edit it, which is a whole other ball game. And that can get really complex as well. So all told probably it's close to two weeks worth of work to make a class. And the problem for me is that... at the beginning of my Skillshare journey, when I started making stuff for Skillshare, I had more windows of time where I would just have complete downtime, like, you know, two or three weeks where there wasn't a client in sight.
Kendyll Hillegas:
And of course then that was extremely anxiety provoking. And I would get really worried that I was never going to work again. But now that really almost never happens anymore. And I have to set aside time to work on Skillshare in between things. And that is my biggest challenge. Not Skillshare specifically, but you know, finding time to do all of the non-client stuff, like everything from updating portfolio to doing billing and admin, to making a class, to making anything self-initiated - any of that stuff is just orders of magnitude, more difficult to find time for than it used to be both because of having kids and really wanting to not work once I leave the studio. And then also just because of being much busier with client work than I used to be.
Steve Folland:
How do you make time?
Kendyll Hillegas:
I'll let you know when I figure it out,
Steve Folland:
You'll make a Skillshare video about it.
Kendyll Hillegas:
I'm being very honest. Like that is my big struggle right now. The best kind of hint that I have that may be the right track to follow, the thing that I'm working on right now is just, even if I feel like I don't have time to do something, just deciding to do that thing first. So the thing that keeps getting bumped, the thing that keeps getting pushed, because I, quote unquote 'don't have time' because I have to do this client stuff. I will make a decision at the beginning of the day, I'm going to do this for two hours, even though I feel like I don't have those two hours, if that makes sense. And then, you know, kind of letting the chips fall, where they may with respect to the other stuff. That's my working hypothesis at the moment.
Steve Folland:
To touch on Skillshare just one more time very quickly, because obviously you have an audience who have found you on say Instagram or Tumblr or YouTube - these things you've put so much time into. Am I right in saying the other benefit of Skillshare is that they have their own audience who they martket to.
Kendyll Hillegas:
That's a great point. Yeah. So there's another audience there and you know, there are plenty of teachers. So I'm, actually a 'top teacher' on Skillshare, which basically they have some, I forget their metric for it, but essentially it's like the 1% most engaging the upper 1%, most engaging classes. However, they figure that out. They have some metrics that they look at. But of the top teachers, I probably have one of the, not the biggest, there are definitely top teachers with bigger social media presences than I have. But most of the top teachers that I have interacted with have smaller social media presences than me. So you don't have to have a massive audience to do well there, I think I probably started doing well a little more quickly because I had an audience to start with.
Kendyll Hillegas:
But then the great thing about Skillshare, as opposed to, you know, YouTube is it's just a much smaller ecosystem and it's actually still managed and curated by people. So they of course have algorithms, but they also have people who are constantly looking through new classes and scouring classes. And if they see stuff that's good, they will lift it up. They will make it a staff pick - they'll feature it. And that's a big plus I think, and a big reason why, you know, somebody without much of an audience, I would say if they're looking to do online education, definitely start on a place like Skillshare. I know that there are other ones too, but start in one where you have an audience there. It's just like, if you're going to have a free-standing, standalone shop on your website versus something on Etsy, you know, it's a marketplace essentially. So if you don't have a big audience on your own, starting with a marketplace that has a built in audience can be really helpful.
Steve Folland:
Now, Kendyll, if you could tell your younger self, one thing about being freelance, what would that be?
Kendyll Hillegas:
I would say to make sure that whatever it is that you're freelancing in, that it's the thing that you enjoy spending time on the most, because it's going to be hard, there'll be a lot of challenges and you have to really love the thing that you're doing if you're going to stick with it and to become successful at it. So I would focus on finding the process, finding the thing that you enjoy doing the most, and then building it around that.
Steve Folland:
You mentioned at one point how you doubled revenue or tripled revenue or whatever it was year on year, things were getting bigger and bigger. Was that because you have more work or because you put your prices up or a combination? Cause it sounds great.
Kendyll Hillegas:
I think it was a combination. So I mentioned earlier that from the beginning I would have these gaps, you know, and then very early on, there were huge gaps - I would have like six weeks without any clients. And those gaps kind of gradually got smaller and smaller. So that was one thing. It was just much more constant booking. And then I had a couple of clients that were ongoing clients. So projects that like editorial stuff that I would do every month. And then I started putting my prices up, especially with commercial stuff, with like packaging illustration and not even to like the highest high end, but to more like middle of the road prices. I try to talk really transparently about pricing on YouTube quite a lot because I think it's, it helps everybody.
But I was like a lot of people, very nervous with pricing initially and probably underquoted for stuff. So in those years where things were just growing exponentially, it was also just because I was coming up to more industry standard rates. In the U S there's a book called The Graphic Artist's Guild Handbook For Pricing And Ethical Guidelines. It's a mouthful. Some people just call it the GAG Guide, and it has pricing tables in it. And from what I understand from some friends in the UK, there are resources like that for illustrators. But I guess maybe that would be the other thing I would say to my younger self about freelancing is get some concrete pricing information because it just makes a world of difference when you feel confident knowing instead of just stabbing in the dark - thinking this is what something should cost - having a concrete idea of what other people in your industry are charging is just so, so helpful. And, you know, being able to aim for kind of middle of the road. Yeah. I think that that's part of what brought it up that level as well.
Steve Folland:
Thanks so much Kendyll - and all the best being freelance!
This episode is sponsored by…
WITH JACK - insurance for creatives.
If you’re thinking ‘Why do I need insurance?!’, check out the With Jack guide and get ready to go ‘oh! That’s why!’