Creativity is self-care - Brand Designer Hope Meng
About this episode…
Creativity is self-care - Brand Designer Hope Meng
Hope woke up one day to realise that she hadn’t accomplished even half of the things she’d envisioned for her career. Motivated to recover from the low-grade depression she’d been in, she began making time for creativity again.
Hope set out to find more purpose and meaning in her work, to connect with other creatives, and to explore her own interests and creative projects. She shares her story with Steve, from bricks-and-mortar business owner to world-traveller; to mum of two and now brand designer with plenty of creative side projects on the go.
Read highlights from the episode in the next tab.
When you’ve lost the spark…
Realising that she’d been in a low-grade depression, Hope suddenly felt motivated again.
"I threw myself back into creative work in every aspect. I started not only making more time for myself to create, but I started attending conferences so I could connect to the creative community; I started engaging more in the online creative community through Instagram. I worked with a therapist and a business coach to bring more clarity around what I wanted out of my life's work."
Finding meaning in the work
"For me, the work is always about enabling somebody's vision in the best way possible. It's about this entrepreneurial spirit and helping people achieve the good that they want to do in the world. And that's why I love working directly with clients. Because I get to hear all that vision and drive and mission. It's something you're insulated from when you work in an agency."
In pursuit of that goal, Hope says she’s had to make some hard choices.
"I broke up with one of my longest and most wonderful clients because I was never going to get to do the brand work there. It just wasn't going to fulfill my long-term goals. I was nervous about actually doing it but once it was done there were no hard feelings. I found another designer who could work with them and it felt like a relief. I felt so much more focused and purposeful."
Protecting your creative time
Through the ups and downs, Hope’s learned to prioritise the things that keep her balanced.
"Creativity for me is self-care. I was not understanding that before. I thought self-care was getting a massage. And it is that as well. But for me, it's about indulging my creativity. And that is what is lasting and sustainable. It's not the massage, it's that part. So I make time for those things in order to make sure the rest of my life is in balance."
"It's okay to be multi-faceted and to have different interests, and in fact — that is your strength."
- Hope Meng, Brand Designer
More from Hope Meng
Transcript of the Being Freelance podcast with Steve Folland and Brand Designer Hope Meng
Steve Folland: How about we get started hearing how you got started being freelance.
Hope Meng: Sure. okay. So I'd actually like to back it up to a few years before I went out on my own because I think that helps kind of clarify some of my journey. So I started my business in 2010, but back in 2007 I was in my final year of art school. Three years prior to that, so in 2004, I had started the country's first sewing lounge with two of my best friends. So basically it was this brick and mortar shop that allowed you to rent sewing machines. We taught classes and we had work from local fashion designers. So obviously that was a huge undertaking while I was still going to art school. But on top of that, I was also planning my wedding and working part-time at this boutique design studio that the chair of my department had founded.
Hope Meng: So by 2008, I was royally burned out. And my husband and I decided, I mean, we had been planning this for a while, but we decided the timing was right for us to quit our jobs and travel around the world. So we ended up being away from home actually for 16 months. And when we returned to San Francisco, I was newly pregnant with our first child. And the original plan when we returned back to San Francisco was for me to go back to the design studio that I had been working at. But with the pregnancy, like all of a sudden, all of this stuff was in question. Number one, I kind of needed to make more money. Number two, would I want to stay at home with the baby, would I want to work part time? I just didn't know any of the answers to these questions.
Hope Meng: So to kind of bide my time before having the baby, I decided to freelance and, you know, those first six months before having my son were kind of a crash course in all the different types of graphic design work that you could do. So you know, previously I had worked at this like boutique design studio with seven people on total on staff, but then suddenly I was working onsite with agencies that had like 50 designers staffed on a single project. I worked with an in-house design team and I was taking on my own clients as well. So I really got to see during that time, the full range of design positions. And then after the baby came I continued working directly with clients. So I was with the baby part-time for his first two years.
Hope Meng: So I couldn't really take on those kinds of agency design jobs that require you to be onsite for like 40 to 60 hours a week. And I didn't know it at the time, but that was such a blessing 'cause that's kinda how I started building connections and developing a stable of clients. And some of those clients are still with me to this day. So that was sort of how I got started. And then fast forward to about, you know, three years ago, you know, the entire time I've been working as... sort of this designer of all trades, doing all kinds of different design work, like doing branding, I designed cookbooks with like a local publisher, I designed annual reports, just like all kinds of industries, all kinds of clients, all kinds of types of designs and format. In the meantime, I had had my second child and she was about three years old.
Hope Meng: So you can imagine how crazy my life was at that point. And you know, maybe this is kind of like a classic, you know, midlife crisis story. But one day I kind of woke up and I realized that I hadn't really accomplished even half of the things that I had originally envisioned for my career. I also didn't feel very fulfilled by my career. Like now I realize it, but at the time I think I was in sort of a low grade depression and I was feeling just super unmotivated by my work. I was dreaming of an exit. Like winning the lottery and you know, becoming just an old lady who got to, you know, watercolor all day or something, you know,, just having so many fantasies about getting away and you know, that now I realize like, Oh, that was, that was depression.
Hope Meng: Depression doesn't always look like crying and not being able to get out of bed. Sometimes it just feels like you're living your life in molasses. You know, everything just feels harder to do than it normally is. Anyway, the process of getting myself out of that was, you know, probably around a year to a year and a half long journey and what it looked like was just this flurry of activity. Like once I realized that I'm not a naturally depressive person. And so once I realized that that's the state I was in, it was like, it... It motivated me. And I immediately threw myself back into creative work, in every aspect. So I not only started making more time for myself to create, but I started attending conferences so I could connect to the creative community.
Hope Meng: I started engaging more in the online creative community through Instagram. And, you know, personally I worked with a therapist and a business coach to kind of bring more clarity about what I wanted out of my life's work. And you know, I'm always evolving. Things are always changing, especially over the last year, all of the craziness that has happened, but you know, here I am on the other side and I feel like I have much greater purpose and much more satisfaction in my work than I've ever had. And so the reason why I went on that huge long story is to tell your listeners that, you know, you hear these days a lot about people preparing to go freelance... there's just so many resources out there that help you to prepare for the journey with intention, like there are guides and online courses and stuff on the business side and even on the emotional side. But I want to say that there are people out there like me who just sort of throw themselves into it without all that preparation work and... well, you know, it's probably a good idea for you to understand what you're getting into. I guess I'm here as an example of that, the journey is long and sometimes very unexpected. And if you have the privilege of sticking with a freelance career, so much of it can be surprising and an interesting journey.
Steve Folland: Wow. okay. There's so much to talk about. Where do I begin? I tell you what - let's go right back, because how did you go about getting those first freelance clients? When you came back from traveling and you decided to start freelancing ahead of the birth of your first child. How did you get those first freelance clients?
Hope Meng: That's a great question. Okay. So when I first decided that I was going to hang my hat out, you know, it was sort of helpful because we had just come back also from this 16 month journey. And so it was this, it was a time of like reconnecting with my community. And, and so I basically reached out to everybody that I knew. This was like 10 years ago. So back in that day, social media was not quite as big as it is now. But in some ways it was better because it was much more intimate. So I posted on all of my social media channels and then I just set up meetings with all friends that I could, that would possibly have any sort of leads sent out an email saying, I'm available for design work.
Hope Meng: This is what I'm going to do. And so some of those led to actual work and it's been a chain reaction this entire last decade. It's like, okay. So I met with a friend who passed my name onto this person who worked at an online publication. So then I did some work for them. And then a client saw my work for the online publication, hired me to do some work for the company that they work for on and on and on down the line. So that's sort of how the ball has continued to roll over these years
Steve Folland: And if I'd have visited your website, did you have a website? How would that have portrayed you back then?
Hope Meng: Oh my gosh, that's a great question. I think it was okay. So I, I kind of can't remember what my website... We'll have to go look in the Wayback machine or whatever.
Steve Folland: Oh, I always forget that. That's a good machine.
Hope Meng: But I think, you know, it would have been kind of unfocused. Oh, I do remember my old website now. Okay. Well, it was not full width 'cause you know, we didn't do that back then. It was all little thumbnails of some work that I had done at the studio that I was working at before I left on my, around the world trip. And as well as, you know, two or three kind of student projects.
Steve Folland: And also you mentioned this sewing lounge, the country's first sewing loynge, which is quite some phrase, unless of course it's still the only sewing lounge. That sounds more like a real sort of entrepreneurial thing to do, albeit or formed out of a love of art and craft type stuff. Did that help you at all?
Hope Meng: Oh my gosh. Yes. and you know, probably left me with some scars as well...
Steve Folland: Not just from a wayward sewing machine.
Hope Meng: Ha! Exactly. You know, it's interesting because that was a very different kind of business. It was a brick and mortar shop. It had so many different components, you know, like we had probably around under 10 employees, but we had employees we were teaching classes. So I, I learned so much from that experience. Number one, I mean, I guess I alluded earlier to scars. I mean, what it taught me was that I didn't want to have a brick and mortar shop. Services all the way. It also kind of, I mean, to this day, I still have a little bit of an allergic reaction to hiring employees because it's, it's a lot of pressure to have people depending on you for employment, but I learned so much, I mean, I really kind of learned how to teach and I learned so much about running a business and what type of business I wanted to run, but probably the biggest lesson was really understanding how to work with people in the context of the sewing lounge.
Hope Meng: It was much more about working with my business partners and probably dealing with, you know, challenging clients. And, you know, that's obviously set me up so well to work with clients today. Yeah.
Steve Folland: How did do you find, you know, managing one-on-one client relationships for most of it, you seem to have cut out agencies for example, and you're working directly with
Hope Meng: That's right. I do still sometimes work with agencies and I also, I have two colleagues that I work with quite closely who are more, you know, brand strategists. So we will team up and do the whole shebang that a bigger agency would do, but, you know, just on a kind of more intimate scale. So that's a new development that's happened in the last year. That's been really fruitful and really wonderful, but yes, I do tend to work directly with clients. And, you know, as I spoke about earlier during that whole period, when I was sort of like pulling myself out of like depression and figuring out what it was I wanted to do with my work, what I realized during that time was that, you know, for me, the work is always about enabling somebody's vision in the best way possible. It's about this like entrepreneurial spirit and it helping people achieve the good that they want to do in the world. And that's why I love working directly with clients because I get to hear all that vision and that drive and that mission. And it's something that you're a little bit insulated from when you work with an agency.
Steve Folland: That's really interesting hearing about your teaming up with others, by the way, can you explain how that sort of came about and how it works?
Hope Meng: Sure. So one of my colleagues is a woman named Wendy Smith. She's in Austin, Texas, and we actually know each other from art school and Wendy's journey after art school. She went in more like the brand strategy kind of path. And while I continued on design, we sort of reconnected in the last year. You know, she's got her own stable of clients as well, very similar to me, like just on a, more brand strategy scale. So she's, you know, independent works on her own and has just sort of partnered with designers here and there and our skills just compliment each other so well. And you know, we're on like the fifth branding project or something of the last, like three months, so that's going great. And then another woman that I partner with is a woman in San Francisco and it's a little bit harder to explain what her expertise is.
Hope Meng: So she, she runs a small design studio - basically, she's almost like a processes or like a culture designer, if that makes any sense. So what she does is she'll she works with much larger companies and she will work with a team and she does a lot of workshops to help them sort of design their processes and design their culture. And as a result of those workshops, a lot of times you end up with these byproducts that need to be designed. And so she and I worked together on the design portion as well,
Steve Folland: Like a relationship where they have hired you or where you're like putting yourself forward as a, I know like a joint thing.
Hope Meng: Yes. I guess they're usually hiring in this situation. They're usually hiring her studio.
Steve Folland: Sounds like you're excited in that way of working, like not just doing things by yourself, but that collaboration side of it.
Hope Meng: I am. Yeah. And, you know, it's something that as I mentioned earlier through the sewing lounge, you know, I was for a long time, very nervous about, you know, bringing on people. And I had done it from time to time when I had gotten too busy, like brought on a junior designer or something like that, you know, hired a copywriter, but it's something that I hadn't fully done in a while, which is like work in a more collaborative way with somebody who was at my same level. And that's proving to be quite now that I have a better understanding of what my strengths are and the ways that I want to develop. It's been a really wonderful development in the last year.
Steve Folland: Obviously, when I introduced you, I described you as a brand designer. You were saying, when you first started out, obviously you designed anything. How did you get into that? Like calling yourself that and just doing that?
Hope Meng: Yeah. I mean, that was the result of that work I had done about two years ago with my business coach and probably just through, you know, therapy and self-examination, I just put a lot of thought into like, okay, what is it about this work that fulfills me, like actually fills my bucket? You know, why do I love it so much? And you know, it, it's easy to say it now, but it took a long time to figure out what exactly that was. And as I mentioned, that that is about enabling somebody's vision, about hearing their story and presenting it in the best way possible through like kind of strategic or kind of conceptual analysis of what their mission and their vision are. And once I realized that it was like, okay, as much as I kind of liked designing cookbooks, cause that's pretty fun. Like I, that's not really getting me to what, what I am saying my own vision is, you know? And so I very quickly realized exactly. Okay, well, that's, it's really about the brand design. Like it's about taking somebody's desire to do good in this world and presenting it in a visual way. And that is brand design. And that's when I decided like, okay, that's what, that's my focus. And that is what I will be doing from here on out.
Steve Folland: Do you think you needed to go through the years of designing everything to realize what it was that lit you up that filled your bucket? Or do you wish you'd have figured this out years ago? Do you think you have to go through it in order to find that niche?
Hope Meng: For me? Yes. I think there are a lot of people out there who have more... Okay, I'm going to get a little like woo here. But I remember when my husband and I first got together or started dating, somebody gifted us an astrological chart reading, you know, and we went and you know, we had to give this person our birthday, like time of birth and all this stuff where we were located when we were born, et cetera. I don't remember much from the reading, but I remember in the reading, she gave us this chart. That's sort of like graphed in this circle. If you can imagine almost like a clock, you know that sort of graphed the way that our brains worked. And his was like all on one side, like everything was pointing to this, like, you know, three hands of the clock, let's say like, you know, three, four and five or something.
Hope Meng: And my chart was literally the entire clock. It was all over, you know? And I think about that a lot because I have a lot of interests, you know, I'm one of those people who's like very I, I love learning new things. And so I think for myself, I did have to go through all that to understand what it was that I wanted to do. I think some people come out the gate and they already know what they want to do, but for me I did have to go through that.
Steve Folland: Yeah. But how did it feel when you made that decision? Presumably you had to perhaps turn stuff away?
Hope Meng: Yeah, I did. I actually broke up with one of my longest and, you know, most wonderful clients because I was never going to get to do the brand work there. It just wasn't going to fulfill my long-term goals, you know, and I was much more nervous about actually doing it. Then when it was actually done, once it was done, I, there were no hard feelings. I found another designer who could, you know, work with them and it felt like a relief. It felt like so much more focused and purposeful. And yes, I had to do the same with a couple of other clients as well, but what's great about it is, you know, once you understand what your strengths are and, and like, knowing that you are accomplished and good at this particular thing, instead of, you know, let's say a client comes to me wanting to do an app and like previously I would have, you know, maybe like seven years ago I would have considered it. I would have been like, Oh, maybe I would do that, something like that, you know, but that would have taken so much time. And, and, and that's a lot of creative energy that you are using up on the learning of a new platform versus the actual work. So it really frees you up to it, frees up space in your creative mind to make sure that you're doing the level of work that you want to do.
Steve Folland: I also introduced you as a letter and artist. So whilst you have sort of niched in terms of design, you're still very happy to say no, but I do 'this and this' thanks very much. I've still got some of that clock face covered.
Hope Meng: That's right. Yeah. So I call myself a letterer because probably, you know, one of the things that I'm well-known for is about five years ago now, so November of 2015, I kind of on a whim decided to start this personal project that's called monogram project. And the way that it sort of arose was that I noticed that whenever I was starting on a brand redesign or brand design, I always wanted to start with a monogram. And I was like, I, you know, I had always had this interest in typography throughout art school. I actually did not really know. I mean, lettering is a huge thing now, but I actually did not know it was a thing at that time. But I stumbled, I guess, upon that community, when I introduced monogram project and basically monogram project is this super long running project that the goal of it is to design or draw every two letter combination of the alphabet.
Hope Meng: And the rule is I do it in order. So starting with AA and end with ZZ, and it's five years later, and I'm only at DV but, you know, that's like over a hundred monograms. All in all, it'll be 676 monograms. When I first started the project, my pace was about two alphabet sets a year. That's one per week, basically one monogram per week. And then I just, you know, during that time, while I was sort of lethargic and depressed, didn't post for like two years or so, my current rate is about one letter set a year. And so it'll take 26 years to finish this project on my current rate. Hopefully I can I can kind of like pick up the pace a little bit here, but I will say that that is another source of work and name recognition, and it supports my work in a lot of different ways.
Hope Meng: So number one, a lot of really cool things have come out of monogram project. Like it's been covered in online publications, you know, like Adobe's blog and the create magazine. And I ended up teaching a workshop at letterform archive about designing monograms. So there's a lot that's come out of it besides just the work. And it supports my work a lot too, because now know clients will look at the monogram project and they'll be like, I like that style. And that is like such a huge advantage when you're starting off on a brand design. It's like, when you understand what style they like already out the gate, that just makes your work so much easier,
Steve Folland: Such a cool project. And how are you sharing it? How were you putting it out there in the world?
Hope Meng: I really just started on Instagram and it, you know, from the beginning, it kind of blew up right away and people were super interested, you know, back then, I think it was a little bit easier to find people organically. And people were finding my project organically, you know, just the whole like lettering and typography community found it. Interesting.
Steve Folland: They were thinking, I'm going to follow this for the next 30 years!
Hope Meng: And, you know, I think I kind of dropped off when I didn't post for, you know, a year and a half or whatever it was. But but yeah, it was Oh shoot, sorry. I lost my train of thought. Tell me the question again.
Steve Folland: Oh, that suggests I remember even what I asked. I know. I was saying, how do you put it out into the world?
Hope Meng: It was mostly on Instagram and then I made a website specifically for the project, and then now, you know, five years later it starts, I guess the way that the project kind of gets out is through some of these, of these like online publications and companies or whatever organizations that have learned about it and think it's cool. So you know, a lot of followers from like the Adobe create feature and then also, probably from the letter form archive workshop.
Steve Folland: I love it so much. So like, it helps you because you're practicing your art and your skill as it were, but it's it helps your clients, but it helps bring you clients. It helps build your recognition, but ultimately you just love doing it, but it's also cool to know that you were able to take a break from that because, you know, lots of people start projects. They can become quite consuming, but you were able to take a break and then come back to it and keep it alive. I like that too. Yeah.
Hope Meng: Yeah. And you know, something that I I meant to mention was one of the reasons why I even found it interesting or wanted to start on this project is because, you know, back then it was really hard to kind of show the range of styles that I was capable of that, that I was interested in because clients, you know, especially if you're in San Francisco, I tend to have a lot of clients that are like architecture based for whatever reason. And you know, there's a lot of startups and that sort of thing in San Francisco, like tech companies are not going to go for like black letter, you know, but I happen to love black letter and I wanted to show that that was something I was interested in and something I was capable of doing. And so I was able to explore all of these styles that were more expressive than I was getting hired to do. And that I think is, you know, that's, again, part of my weird, you know, clock graph thing, you know, I want to explore the whole range and not just one particular look. And so it really helped to fulfill that need and myself to be, to be able to show my range and to show what I was interested in,
Steve Folland: Obviously go to beingfreelance.com for all of our guests - there is going to be a link through, so you can find out about the monogram project in particular. But if we now look at how your business evolved and like where you are now in 2021... What are your revenue streams? What do you have coming in?
Hope Meng: Yeah, so the huge, like chunk of it is all brand designed with independent businesses. So they're usually, you know, what, I, I guess you could consider them small businesses, cause they're all, you know, under 500 employees that allows me to work directly with the stakeholders or the, you know, the principals and that's, as I mentioned, what I really love about the work. So that's a big portion of it. There is, I mean, what I would consider like straddling the kind of precipice between art and design. And so I've done a project that is a series of interactive art pieces in an office building. I don't know if I can actually say the client, so I'm just going to not say it right now. So but it's a big client and, you know, they have whatever 20 floors in their offices in San Francisco and it's a specific floor and it's a series of like murals and art installations with like one of them had a bunch of like hand painted signage that I, that I hand painted.
Hope Meng: Another piece was a neon sign that I designed last year. I also did a project for one of my brand design clients. So it was eat real festival and it's a huge food festival that happens in Oakland every year. And they have these, it's a free festival, so you don't have to pay to get into it. The redesign that I ended up doing for them was very like hand drawn, really kind of what's the word, like playful. And I actually pitched them on a live mural painting at their event because it worked so well with their brand. And I was like, look, the look and feel already is like the sort of playful hand drawn set of graphics. Right? So what I, what I pitched to them was this, I would live paint essentially like a big mural that was like a life-size coloring book. So it had all of their illustrations and then we would put out these paint markers and the community could come and fill it in. And so that was like, so in line with their brand values and they, they, they were just like, yes, let's do it. You know? So it's kind of, that's why I think it's sort of this weird spot between art and design, because it's still requires this understanding of the organization's brand, but it is sort of like this interaction. That's more like art driven.
Steve Folland: Yeah. I like that you're spotting opportunities and how you can help them. So income stream wise, it's brand work, there's art installation, live work, anything else?
Hope Meng: It's a much smaller percentage of my income, but I do actually make some income from print on demand products. So I had a different personal project that I completed this year, which I can talk about if you'd like, and you know, some people actually do find the monogram project and license or like purchase the monogram for use as their logo. And so that's sort of like a passive income stream because I mean, I have to do a little bit of work, you know, usually like preparing the files, but it's not a lot of work because the work is art, the design part is already done and it's so much more affordable for the client because the work is already done. It's just sitting there and I don't have to do custom work for them. So they just purchase the monogram.
Hope Meng: So if their company happens to be, you know, like CF and you've already done the CF and they like what's that, so I've got to wait a long time for you to get to SF - well, okay. So there's that passive income stream from the monogram project, but another personal project as well?
Hope Meng: So another like source of income. I mean, again, it wasn't like compared to the branding projects, it's a much smaller percentage, but I applied for the Adobe creative residency fund. In the past what they've done is they end up granting a full salary to maybe six people a year that they choose and they're across all disciplines. So it's not just designers, but photographers, illustrators, UX, UI, UX designers, etc. And what they do is they basically sponsor somebody to work on their personal project for a year. To apply for the program, you pitch them on your project. And then you go through series of interviews in order to to win the commission. This past year, Adobe changed the format a little bit to respond to the pandemic and the way that it had affected freelance artists. And what they did was they made much smaller grant commissions, but spread it across like maybe like 25 to 50 people a month. So it was a lot more artists that got the commission,
Steve Folland: Right. 'Cause they wanted to help people whose incomes have been affected. Okay.
Hope Meng: You know, and it, and as it turns out, I was commissioned by the Illustrator for iPad team to work on a personal project. And the project that I worked on was the title of it is 'Hanzimals'. And basically that means Chinese words. Like if you may have heard the Japanese term Kanji and Hanza is basically Kanji, but in Chinese, I'm Chinese, my children go to a Mandarin school. For the last several yearsI have been designing the t-shirt that gets sold for their school's annual Chinese new year event, which is the biggest community event at the school. It was the year of the pig. And I combined thils very graphic, iconic illustration of a pig with the word that the character for pig and Chinese, and that was the seed of the project. And since then, I've always wanted to design the entire Chinese Zodiac.
Hope Meng: So that's like 12 different animals. So this last year was the year of the rat. And I, again designed like an illustration of a rat with the actual character of the rat, like combined, it's almost like a monogram, but instead it's like an illustration Chinese Adobe creative residency allowed me to expand it into the entire Zodiac. So I completed the entire Zodiac. I did a post on Instagram for each of the animals. I also have taken that project and like made products from it. And then my ultimate dream is to be able to make this into like a children's board book, you know, where the children can learn.
Steve Folland: Yes, yes. It is wonderful. Again, there's a link at beingfreelance.com. The way you bring the Chinese characters in - like an animal is made out of the Chinese characters. And seeing it on all those products is really cool as well. So is that, so we've got I guess passive, not so passive, but passive income from that project, the other project brand doing live art. Anything else - you teach because you, you talked about teaching, you know, when you were doing the sewing llounge?
Hope Meng: Yeah. I did actually teach a workshop for for letterform archive this year. Yeah. I don't normally, I mean, I guess I, it's not something I do regularly. But I do really enjoy it. I had a blast teaching that monogram workshop and then just the enthusiasm of all of the designers who took the workshop and seeing the work that came of it, it's really gratifying. I do really enjoy doing that.
Steve Folland: Work life balance wise, how do you feel like you're getting on with that? It sounded like you were somebody who, you know, you took 16 months out to travel the world, for example. So maybe it's not all about work all the time with you, but equally you got to that point of burnout as well. So how have you found that side of things with being freelance?
Hope Meng: Yeah. Well, I mean, children certainly very much limit your working hours, right? They do not stand for you sitting on a computer, you know, when they're around. So that, you know, obviously helps move things along. It's definitely a skill that I've developed the longer that I've been in this career. I mean, I definitely remember in the early days, just not understanding at all how long something was going to take me and, you know, not only underpricing the project, but just, you know, being really stressed, stressed, because you didn't give yourself enough time to achieve something. So I'm much better nowadays about scheduling and project management than I was back in those days. But you know, like many creative and interested people, I'm I have a hard time saying no to projects that I think are cool. And so, you know, maybe once or twice a year, I will get myself into this situation where I'm having to work after the kids go to bed or, you know, I'm kind of on the edge of burnout, but you know, it gets better. I guess. I just, I still do it, but it's just not as frequently. It's not as often because nowadays I do know how long something is going to take me. And I'm much, much better about scheduling. Like I schedule out like every if I have a deliverable or some sort of milestone that I need to meet, I'm very good about scheduling. Like, like I schedule out almost every single hour of my day when I'm in that situation.
Steve Folland: Yeah. And so you, if something came along, then you already knew you had plenty on you'd push back.
Hope Meng: Oh yeah, definitely. I would say, you know, I can't start this until X date. I would just make that clear from the very beginning, because this just doesn't serve anybody, you know, to be trying to wedge something in, I mean, you end up doing work that you're not super excited about and it doesn't help the client either to have work. That's not, you know, amazing.
Steve Folland: Yeah. It sounds like the business coach has been quite a big thing for you. Sometimes in the Being Freelance community, people will say, how do you even find a business coach? How do I know where to...? So I'm going to ask that - how did you go about finding and choosing who to work with in that way?
Hope Meng: Yeah, that's a great question. So I had sort of seen about her written online because she is the coach of many, not designers, but the independent creative business women in San Francisco. And they would post about her in stories or, you know, whatever mentioned her by name. And so I just started following her and, you know, at the time it came up where, you know, she mentioned that she was ready to start a new cohort. And so I ended up I, you know, the timing just worked out really well. And so I would, I would work with her again or I would work with, you know, I would consider checking out other people as well. And the way that I would go about that is I have a lot of friends who, you know, it you'll be surprised if you put the word out there that you are looking for somebody like a business coach. A lot of people have actually worked with business coaches, at least in San Francisco. Maybe it's like a Northern California thing, but a lot of people have done it. And a lot of people have actually like interviewed several different coaches. So it's not just like, Oh, I worked with this coach. It's like, I worked with this coach, but I also know about these other five coaches. So, you know, you have a very large pool to gather from. So that's how I would go about it if I was looking for a new coach.
Steve Folland: Okay. Now, if you could tell your younger self, one thing about being freelance, what would that be?
Hope Meng: I would say that it's okay to be multifaceted and have different interests. And in fact, that is your strength
Steve Folland: Having most of the clock face covered so long as it doesn't take up all the time of the real clock face. And one thing I wanted to just pick up - you spoke at one point about the things that you'd envisioned for your life and for your career. And so I'm just thinking, are you somebody who makes plans and works towards them? Do you have stuff ahead of you?
Hope Meng: Oh yeah. Yeah.
Steve Folland: Other than 26 years of monograms, right?
Hope Meng: Yes. I mean, well, it's funny. I had a whole journey during your question, when you said, are you somebody who plans things? And when at the beginning of your question, when you said that somebody who plans things and works towards them, I have a hard time saying yes to that. I am not one of those people. Who's like, okay, there is my goal. I have total 100% clarity and I will go towards that vision. You know, I'm, I, I change a lot. It's it's a pro it's much more of a process for me. And I think that's relatable. Right. I don't, I mean, are there that many people out there that are super laser focused on like what it is that they want ultimately in life? And then when they get there, are they like totally satisfied? I mean, like getting to that point necessarily means that you're changing and it always adjusts.
Hope Meng: Right? The end always changes. So when you said that part, I had a hard time getting on board with seeing myself as that person. However, when you said, do you have things on the horizon? The answer was yes. I was like, yes, I do have, you know, visions of what I want to become and that's part of the struggle, right? Is that when it's sort of like unconventional or it's not something that's like, totally that there's an example already out there for you, it's a little harder to figure out how you're going to get there. So my vision is very much pushing towards more of like an art practice. I have a project that I'm working on - yet another personal project, Steve cause I just can't get enough of them apparently. But it requires a lot.
Hope Meng: It's going to be a journey. And I don't know. I mean, of course there are people out there who are artists and designers at the same time, but often they do not package it together. You know, they kind of market it separately, which is kind of what I do. So that's a place that is very confusing for me is like, how do I do this? Like, am I one person or am I two people like a design person and an art person? And that's sort of like the struggle I'm in currently. Like how do I achieve both of these things? And what is the balance of design and art? What is the balance of taking in work that will pay me now versus laying the groundwork for this other existence that I see in my future that may not be paid at this moment, but you do have to do that work right. To get to somewhere else.
Steve Folland: So fascinating. When you get to be the old lady who gets to do watercolors all day, maybe she will know the answer. I hope she does.
Hope Meng: I hope she does.
Steve Folland: I love that. It feels like personal projects making time for personal projects is important to you.
Hope Meng: Yes. That's a big realization that I had after that, you know, kind of depressive period about three years ago is that creativity for me is self-care, that's what I was not understanding that before I sought self-care was like getting a massage and, and, and that it is, you know, it is that as well. But for me, it is about indulging my creativity and that is what is lasting and sustainable. It's not the massage. It's that part. So I make time for those things in order to make sure the rest of my life is in balance.
Steve Folland: Love it. Thank you so much and all the best being freelance!
Hope Meng: Thank you so much, Steve. This was so fun.
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