Nothing is a mistake - Email Conversion Strategist Eman Ismail
Eman was working as a production assistant at a local TV station when she realised she wanted to write. She began applying for jobs while at the same time setting up her business and brand.
Eman took a job offer and became the communications manager at a charity. A necessary experience, she says now, even though the commute was a killer and she barely saw her young son.
These days, Eman’s found her own version of work-life balance after leaving the 12-hour days behind. She’s building on the skills she picked up in that first writing job and investing in herself with courses, mentorships and a mastermind.
She chats to Steve about how her freelance career has developed so far, sharing plenty of practical tips along the way.
More from Eman Ismail
This episode of the Being Freelance podcast is supported by Gold Stag Accounts.
Plain talking, friendly, freelance accountants. Masters of Xero, FreeAgent and Quickbooks, they love to help freelancers get their finances sorted.
Set up a free chat today at goldstagaccounts.co.uk/beingfreelance.
Useful links
Technical Copywriter John Espirian’s episode, Relentlessly helpful
Copywriter Kate Toon’s episode, 25% marketing
Come and join us in the community and watch past Live Q&As with John and Kate.
Belinda Weaver’s website, copywritematters
More from Steve Folland
Transcript of the Being Freelance podcast with Email Conversion Strategist Eman Ismail and Steve Folland
Steve Folland: So, we have got freelance email conversion strategist Eman Ismail. Hey, Eman!
Eman Ismail: Hi.
Steve Folland: Eman is in the Being Freelance community. She won non-employee of the week not that long ago. But you know what? I still don't know all of your story. I see what happens now, but I don't know how you got to what you're doing. So I can't wait to hear that. How about we get started with that? How did you get started being freelance?
Eman Ismail: It's a long story. Are you ready for this?
Steve Folland: Absolutely. Most of us are in quarantine. Go for it.
Eman Ismail: Right, okay. So I was working for a local TV station as a production assistant. And my son would have been about 10, 11 months old at that point, and I enjoyed what I was doing there. But I knew that it wasn't a forever thing. I just, the opportunity kind of came and I thought, well, that sounds cool, let me try it. So I did. And it wasn't until they had me writing scripts that I thought, I really do want to write. I knew that I always wanted to write, but I just didn't believe that I could get paid for being a writer. So I thought, okay, I really have to do this now, because I've wanted to do this for a really long time. So I started looking for other opportunities. I did apply for a few jobs, but my main, the thing I wanted most was to become a business owner and to do it myself and to not have a manager over me. And to be able to kind of have a flexible working life for my son, and that kind of thing.
Eman Ismail: So I did start setting up a business while also applying for jobs. And I guess my primary thing was, I want to do the business, but I didn't have confidence that it was going to work out, to be honest. So that's why I was applying for jobs on the side. But I did set up a business. I had one called Golden InkHouse, and the website was done, I had the domain goldeninkhouse.com, and I ran it by a friend and he said, "You need to drop the golden." So I said, yeah. So I said, "What's wrong with the golden? I've already got my domain. It's goldeninkhouse.com." To which he replied, "Well, there's a reason you were able to get goldeninkhouse.com. No one else wants it." So I thought, okay. Well, I'll drop the golden. I took his piece of criticism, I dropped the golden and we were left with ...
Steve Folland: Hang on. Golden ink isn't some sort of euphemism that I've not heard of or something?
Eman Ismail: No.
Steve Folland: What made him so sure?
Eman Ismail: Okay, well. The thing is, I wanted the golden because I thought it kind of represented this golden standard of service that I was going to give all my clients. And so my branding was all golden, everything was all gold. And he was just like, "That sounds awful. Golden InkHouse sounds awful." He actually says it sounds like a business owner trying to be a business owner. That's what he said.
Steve Folland: Oh.
Eman Ismail: So I thought, okay. Well, I'll take that and I'll go with InkHouse. Because I did prefer it as well. So I ... yeah. So I went with InkHouse. And I then changed my domain to inkhouse.org.uk. And I did have a logo done for me for free. And it just, it wasn't great. So I decided to invest in actually getting a designer to do a proper logo for me. And he did, and he did a really good job. And that's the logo I have now. But actually, the site was up and everything was ready, and then I got a call to go in for an interview at another job. So I did. And I got that job. And that job was to run the Comms department for a charity up in Yorkshire.
Eman Ismail: And so I took it, because I knew that I wanted to be a business owner. I just, I didn't feel ready to. So I kind of parked InkHouse and put my all into this job, basically. And I did think that, I thought I'd be there for a while. But it just, it didn't work out. I was commuting an hour by car every day. And so I'd leave my house at 8:00 AM, and by the time I got home it was 8:00 PM. I was still nursing my son at that time. I had to hire a child minder to go pick him up from nursery, because I couldn't do the nursery pickups. And it was really upsetting, because I'd get home and he'd refuse to go to sleep in his cot because he'd wait up for me. And he couldn't wait up for me because he was so tired, so he'd end up falling asleep on the couch. So every night I'd come in and be devastated that I missed him again and that he'd fallen asleep, and I'd pick him up from the sofa and take him upstairs to his cot. And it was really difficult.
Eman Ismail: And then it wasn't until ... it was actually Ramadan when I was fasting from dawn until sunset every day. And this was in the summer, so this was ... August. No, July, I think, 2018. So bear in mind you can't eat or drink between the hours of sunrise and sunset. So I'd be eating at 10:00 at night. And I was still commuting to Yorkshire every day. And I just thought, I think I'm going to die. I can't ... I might actually die. I can't do this anymore. I was physically exhausted. I was emotionally exhausted. I felt like I was missing so much of my son's life, and I just really had to reflect. And I just thought, I'm working because I really want to create this better life for him. But actually, I'm not seeing him as much as I need to. And I was also working evenings and weekends and not being paid for that, to be honest.
Eman Ismail: And so I sat down with my CEO at the time and had a discussion with him. And I told him, "I'm finding this really difficult. My job would allow me to work from home. Will you consider that?" And that's just not what he wanted for his company, so he said no to that, which I respected. And then I resigned. So I had a month's notice to work, so I did that month's notice. And in that time I went back to the InkHouse website and got everything set up. I started writing up my copy so that the website was ready. I put out some feelers and kind of told everyone on LinkedIn that I was about to leave my job, and if anyone is looking for a freelance copywriter, I can help, because that's what I'm going to do full time. Self employed. And it worked out. I left that job on the Friday, and by Monday I was working in a windowless basement with my first InkHouse client. And actually, my CEO from that company that I'd just left, an hour after my final shift, he actually sent me a text saying, "Hey, could we hire you as a freelancer please?"
Eman Ismail: So he became my client as well. So yeah. And that's how we got to where we are today. That was in September 2018. So I have now been a freelance copywriter for a year and a half.
Steve Folland: So how long were you at the charity?
Eman Ismail: Just over a year.
Steve Folland: Bearing in mind, previous to that you weren't a copywriter as such.
Eman Ismail: No.
Steve Folland: Do you feel like you learned a lot while you were in that role?
Eman Ismail: So much. I learned so much. And I was actually a little upset about taking the job in the first place because, I mean, the job sounded great, but it kind of proved to myself that I didn't believe in myself, that I could create this business I'd always wanted. So it was a little disappointing to myself at the time. But I just, looking back it was so necessary because I learned so much so quickly, and I don't think I would have learned all that I learned had I been doing that myself. I think it was really necessary. I needed to be there.
Steve Folland: So, how did you go about getting your first freelance clients? Other than the charity itself, who suddenly realized they needed you after all.
Eman Ismail: Yes. So LinkedIn, actually. I, again, I posted on LinkedIn and I just said, "Look. I am looking for clients. I'm a freelance copywriter now. If you need one, if you need help with your marketing, get in touch." And because I was already in the charity sector, I'd made a lot of connections on LinkedIn with people from other charities. And interestingly, it turned out that one of the first people that contacted me on the back of those posts actually said, "Oh, I've been looking at the copy that the charity that you just left has been producing. So I was interested in the person who was writing that copy. And yeah, and so we'd be interested in working with you."
Eman Ismail: And actually I had two different charities who came to me and offered me a kind of full time job. And again, it was that thing where I had to think, okay, well I could do that and go with the stability which, to be honest, was really seductive and enticing. And then I thought, you know, just give yourself a chance. This is what I've always wanted to do. And I didn't want it to be over before it even started. So I said no to those opportunities. And one of them just kind of said, "Okay, well, we are looking for a full time person," and they went their own way, which was fine. And the other said, "Okay, that's fine. We'd like to hire you as a freelancer instead."
Steve Folland: Cool. Now, one thing is that you were obviously saying, "I'm a freelance copywriter. Here I am, come hire me." But I introduced you at the beginning as a freelance email conversion strategist. So, somewhere along the line you've niched?
Eman Ismail: I have, I have. So I now work on email conversion strategy and copy. And that came about because when I first started freelancing, one of the first things I wanted to do was build my own mailing list. And I did. So I built my email list, and I loved writing my emails to my own list. And I had a lot of clients that would ask me to write emails for them. And it was just, it was part of the job that just I really enjoyed and it made me really happy to do, and it got to the point where, I send emails to my email list. And I get people responding and laughing with me and telling me how much they enjoyed the email, and sharing the email with people. And I would meet up with a couple of my friends who happened to be on my email list as well, and they'd tell me how much they enjoyed it.
Eman Ismail: And I just thought, well, I really enjoy this. Other people seem to really be enjoying this. So this is what I want to do. And initially I was a little bit scared to niche down, because I guess you worry that you're going to lose out on work. But I found it's gone really well. And this is a new thing. So this has only happened in the past few months. So it's still new. I mean, I've always been doing emails. But now to actually be putting myself out there and saying, "I only do email," is a big thing. I also do sales pages, though, because I work on a lot of launches. So yes, I'm writing the email sequence for those launches, but then the client usually needs a sales page to go with the emails. So I do still do a bit of web copy. And that's how that fits in.
Steve Folland: Hmm. You said you built your list. How do you go about building your own list?
Eman Ismail: Oh, I'm really aggressive with my list building. So one of the ... The very first thing I did was build a lead magnet, which most people do. So I have an ebook called Six Secrets to Writing Copy that Converts, that people can download. But they have to give me their email address to get my ebook. And then once that ebook started going out, I started screenshotting the responses and the positive reviews that I was getting about that lead magnet and posting it on my social media. So that all the people would get FOMO and think, "Oh, actually, I want to join up for that," and get that ebook. I regularly post about my lead magnet on social media. There's three or four posts that go out a week. And in fact, actually, this is so effective because I think it was on Sunday, I kept getting notifications that people had signed up to my list. I think it was four people in the space of about half an hour, which I found really weird. And then I looked my social media and realized that I'd actually scheduled a post that had gone out and said, "Hey, do you know about my email list? Sign up here to get my free ebook." And that's all it took for four people to sign up. They just needed to know about it.
Eman Ismail: So that's really effective. And then little things, like I have the popup on my website, which actually brings in ... I did check recently, I think it was about 62% of my email signups come from the popup on my website. Which is an exit popup, so people see it when they're about to leave. Which some people disagree with, but it's effective, it works. So I've kept at that. But the other thing is when I talk to people and when people book inquiry calls with me on Calendly, I have a little check box at the bottom that says, "Would you like to join my email list? You'll get my free ebook, Six Secrets to Writing Copy that Converts," and I get a lot of people signing in through that as well.
Steve Folland: Oh, it sounds good when it works, doesn't it?
Eman Ismail: It does. Yeah.
Steve Folland: Man, there's so much I want to ask you. Every time you open your mouth you say something and I think 'right, remember to ask her about that'... So one of them, from what you literally just said was about enquiry calls and using Calendly. Was that something that you set up from the beginning?
Eman Ismail: Yes, it was. Not right from the beginning, but I got a mentor, which I will probably need to talk about at some point, because it just changed my career so dramatically. But I noticed that she was using Calendly. And I thought, "Oh, well, if she's using this, it's probably a good idea. So let me set myself up on Calendly." And once I started using it, I just thought, "Oh my gosh, this is amazing." And I paid for the pro version pretty quickly, which I think is ... it's really affordable. And I've been using it ever since, and I just find it so useful.
Steve Folland: And so what do people do? They book in a ... this is a, is it a free inquiry type thing, or ...?
Eman Ismail: So I use it for a couple of different things. So initially what I used to do was, if somebody wanted to talk to me for whatever reason, I'd just say, "Hey, here's a link to my calendar. Please book a call and find a time that works for you." So they'd hit the link and then a list of questions would come up asking them about what they actually want to talk about. And I also added in one about budget, because I spent so much time initially talking to people who didn't have the budget to work with me that I really wanted to qualify those inquiries a lot better. So I added a question in there about budget. And a few other details. And then of course the, would you like to sign up to my email list question. But what I actually do now is I have a VA who takes over setting up that inquiry call thing, basically. So I wanted to add a bit of a human element and a bit of a human touch there, so she now does that for me. So she does exactly the same thing and just asks those qualifying questions, and then decides whether we should kind of move forward into a discovery call, and then she goes ahead and books that in for us all.
Steve Folland: So you found a VA, but you let her choose ... you've trained her to think like you think, to figure out whether or not a lead is worth pursuing.
Eman Ismail: Yes, exactly. So we've spoken about my dream wishlist, my client wishlist. We've spoken about the maybes. So we could potentially talk to these people and find out a bit more and see if it works. And then the definite nos. So the definite nos are really easy for her, because she knows to not move forward with those. The maybes, she'll come to me and we'll have a chat. And then the yeses are, she just books them straight onto a call.
Steve Folland: And they get an email, or whatever, from your VA at InkHouse copy ... as in, it looks like it's coming from your company, sort of.
Eman Ismail: Yes. Yeah, exactly. So the email is hello@inkhouse.org.uk, which I had set up before the VA started. And I did initially set her up as a third email, and then I thought, that's just too much. Because that hello@inkhouse email is everywhere. So if people want to email me, they'll probably email me on that first. Because that's the kind of general inquiry email. And then I have my personal one, iman@inkhouse, that I use for kind of qualified inquiries and clients. And yeah. So I've given her the hello@inkhouse email to manage, and that's her email address, and she has her kind of name at the bottom of it.
Steve Folland: Cool. How have you found working with a VA?
Eman Ismail: It's been interesting. One of the reasons I wanted to work for myself, as well as the flexibility and all those kind of reasons, was because I really enjoy just working by myself. I don't like relying on other people. I find it really hard to do that. So it's been a real experience letting go of that and actually letting someone into my business and see the inner workings of it. And I think there's definitely a certain period of time where you're just kind of getting to know each other and understanding how the other works. But it's been really good. I've found it really helpful, and I wouldn't go back, now, from having a VA.
Steve Folland: Hmm. Cool. And sorry, so, that was one way that you use Calendly.
Eman Ismail: Yes.
Steve Folland: To jump back from where we diverted off. So that's one way you use it.
Eman Ismail: Yes. And the other ways I use it, I have a kind of website audit service that is a paid service. So if people want me to audit the copywriting on their website, they hit the Calendly link on that service page and then they're taken to a Calendly link, and they have to actually pay then and there before they can, in order to book the audit. So I use the paid features as well, which I find really helpful.
Steve Folland: Brilliant. I told you, every time you say something I end up coming back to it. So I've not forgotten the fact that you said the word mentor. So, at what point did you get a mentor, and how did you find them?
Eman Ismail: So. When I was commuting to Yorkshire every day and just feeling like things needed to change, I wrote a post on LinkedIn saying, "Hey, I'm really looking to improve my copywriting skills. Can anyone send me any resources?" Because I had no idea how to get better or where to go to. So a friend of mine actually tagged John Espirian, who was obviously on your podcast not long ago.
Steve Folland: Oh yeah.
Eman Ismail: Yeah. So a friend of mine tagged John Espirian, and then John Espirian then tagged Kate Toon and Belinda Weaver. And both of them commented on my post and said, "Hey, we both have communities, we both have courses, and we've got a podcast too. So check out our podcast." So I did. So on those long commutes, especially when I was stuck in traffic, I used to listen to that podcast. And I must have listened to every episode in about a month. And that podcast really gave me the confidence to feel like I could go and set up my own copywriting business. It's so practical and full of good tips, both mindset and actually practical tips that you can put into practice. So I went away and yeah, and learned everything I could from them.
Eman Ismail: And then I was on Instagram one day, and Belinda Weaver had posted there saying, "My membership community is opening up. I coach copywriters to become confident copywriters." So I thought, "Oh, I'm never going to be able to afford this, but let me have a look at it." And as you do, I went onto the sales page and scrolled right down to the bottom to look at the price. And it was so, so affordable. And so I canceled my LinkedIn premium account and switched it for Belinda Weaver's copywriting community. And joined. And that was, I started freelance copywriting in September, and I was in her group by November. And that really changed everything.
Steve Folland: In what way? What happened in there?
Eman Ismail: I had no clue what I was doing, at all. I had zero clue. I didn't know how to manage clients. The biggest issue that I had was around money. I didn't know how to charge, what to charge. I found it really difficult even talking about money with clients. I would find it difficult to send invoices, as well. And ask for my money. And I just knew that if I carried on the way I was going, I wouldn't be able to ... The business wouldn't survive. I used to charge hourly, at that point, and it just wasn't working. And I just thought, there has to be a better way. There has to be something that I don't know. And this is why I was already really keen to find someone to help me. I just, I didn't know where to look. So when that opportunity cropped up, I jumped at it.
Eman Ismail: And one of the first things I did after joining the community was I actually booked a private 30 minute coaching call with Belinda. And that was a big investment for me at that time, because I wasn't making a lot of money, actually, at all. And I remember telling one of my family members how much that 30 minute coaching call cost and she was just mortified. But I honestly made that back within ... I made it back 10 times over within two weeks of that call. And she just helped me through how to set my rates, what I should be charging, how to feel about what I was charging. And one of the biggest, and one of the greatest pieces of advice that she gave me that I've never forgotten is, go look in the mirror and say your rate to yourself out loud. If it doesn't make you giggle, if you don't laugh out loud, it's not high enough. So keep going up. Keep going up until it makes you giggle. And I did that. And it's worked for me ever since.
Steve Folland: That's so cool. So that was a one-off call. Have you continued that since, then?
Eman Ismail: Yeah. So I've been in that group for almost a year and a half now. And it's so, so useful. So Belinda is, firstly, very active in the group. So it's very much a question and answer. We kind of post stuff and she's always there, responding. And she goes above and beyond as well. So it feels like she's your friend as well as your mentor, which is always really nice. And she posts three different pieces of content a month. So she has a theme. It's very active, it's really practical, and then of course we have a coaching call at the end of every month as well. And I love being on those, because that's when I really get to just chat to other copywriters. But it's, I'm actually in another group now as well that is run by Copyhackers. And that came about, really interestingly because I won a challenge, and I won access to this $3000 mastermind for a year.
Steve Folland: Whoa.
Eman Ismail: Yeah. Yeah.
Steve Folland: So you won it.
Eman Ismail: I won it. And it's completely free, which is always a bonus. So I am now part of Copyhackers, which is Joanna Wiebe and Amy Posner's mastermind and coaching group. And I am in this amazing Slack community with these amazing copywriters who are all doing so much better than me, and are where I want to be in a few years. So it's amazing to be around people that you really look up to and want to be like.
Steve Folland: Wow. So, I probably shouldn't ask this question. But, it's a $3000, what, a year?
Eman Ismail: A year.
Steve Folland: Mastermind.
Eman Ismail: Yep.
Steve Folland: Clearly, that's a lot of money. Can you now see that it is worth that money, if you see what I mean? That will make a lot of people go, "Oh!"
Eman Ismail: Yeah. I would never have paid that. Simply because, just my mindset wouldn't have allowed me to. Because I mean, all the things that I could do with $3000, I'm thinking about my son, I'm thinking about this and that, and I would never even have given myself permission to kind of pay that amount. But now that I'm in there, I'm already budgeting for it for next year. So when this year runs out, I will be part of that community again. It's been amazing. And the value is there. I mean, as well as getting regular office hours with both coaches and being able to ask them questions, this amazing Slack community, and you're building your network with all these copywriters that you've seen online. And you kind of think, "Oh, I'll never be friends with these people," and then suddenly you are, and they share their ideas, and their mistakes and their lessons, and the inner workings of their business. And then on top of that, we actually have a course that is seven months long. So we're getting course content fed to us every month as well. As well as hot seat sessions monthly. Just, the value is insane. It really is.
Steve Folland: And a hot seat session, if I'm right, would be where you specifically talk about your business to everybody and they help you. Would that be right?
Eman Ismail: Yes. Exactly. So there are chosen panelists. So two of the coaches are two of the panelists, and then there are another three panelists from the community. People that have volunteered to be a panelist. And then you actually get up and talk about an issue that you're having in your business, and you are then put on mute, so you can't comment anymore or join in the conversation. And then those five panelists talk about you and your business and ... yeah, for 20 minutes, and try to give you great advice, basically. But the key thing is that you're expected to then do something about it. So there's the accountability aspect as well, where afterwards you then have to post in the accountability group and ask that channel about how you plan to actually put into action what people have recommended.
Steve Folland: Flip an egg. How do you fit everything in? How do you sort of remain productive? Because there's a lot of work. It sounds like there's a lot of building on your business. There's a lot of being in community and learning. You have a family. How do you fit everything in?
Eman Ismail: It's really hard. And I have really struggled. But one of the great things that I've learned from 10 XFC, the Copyhackers mastermind, is to theme my days. So on a Monday, I'm dedicated to learning. So I have dedicated time to learn from one of my many courses. So that I can hopefully eventually get through all of them. I split some of the days off for client work. And then Tuesdays and Wednesdays are solely for client work. Thursdays are marketing Thursday, so I'm focusing on marketing my business. And I promised myself this year that I would cold pitch more. So that is my day to put myself out there and cold pitch to someone for an opportunity that I've really wanted to do but haven't, for whatever reason, put myself forward for. And then Fridays are content Fridays, where I work on my own content. And that means that I know every week how many hours I have for client work. So I book that in beforehand, and I book that in to fit in with my theme days.
Eman Ismail: And again, I just realized that I tried this whole thing of not working weekends. I tried it for a really long time, because I thought that was what I was supposed to do. And I thought it meant I was a bad parent and a bad business owner if I did work weekends. But actually I realized that what I wanted to do was be there more for my son, be more present, which I am. To take him to nursery every day and pick him up from nursery every day, which I am. To be able to join in with all the nursery stuff, all the stay in place and the nursery trips, which I do regularly. And I realized that actually, I have found my own work life balance. And I am being the parent that I wanted to be when I quit my full time job. So if it means that I have to work weekends, I'm okay with that.
Eman Ismail: And what I do now is I have a dedicated amount of time on a Saturday and Sunday where I just do work. So I'll spend most of the day with my son and we'll go do really fun stuff. Probably actually a little bit too much, because I'm trying to kind of soothe the mom guilt. And then once I put him to sleep in the evenings, I dedicate two or three hours on both a Saturday and Sunday to do a bit of work. But it'll never be client work, because I always feel like clients have hijacked my weekend if I do that. It'll always be time to work on my business.
Steve Folland: Cool. Are you solo parenting?
Eman Ismail: Yes.
Steve Folland: Man.
Eman Ismail: Yeah. It's my timetable. It's all my timetable.
Steve Folland: Actually, let's talk. You mentioned there that one of the things you work on is marketing yourself, creating content. Because I see you a lot on Instagram. It sounds like you do a lot on LinkedIn. Is that your main kind of marketing, or ... ?
Eman Ismail: Yeah. I post a lot on LinkedIn, because it works. One in five of my inquiries come from LinkedIn. And I get a lot of verbal feedback from people, telling me that they came across me on LinkedIn. So I know that works, so that will always be a priority for me. And then, I post a lot on Instagram. Which is actually a recent thing. I still despise the grid, because I am really impatient and can't be bothered to come up with loads of hashtags. So I just avoid the grid. It's really neglected. But I love stories and I love engaging with people through stories, and creating videos and sharing all that good stuff.
Steve Folland: What kind of stuff do you put on Instagram stories?
Eman Ismail: A mixture of business and personal stuff. Because I feel like people engage best when I'm talking about life and when I'm just being myself and I'm not too worried about being the professional business owner. And then of course I do mix in a lot of business. So I do talk a lot about my courses and my workshops and what I offer, and that kind of stuff. And I've found that in the past few months with me being more active on stories that I'm getting a lot more inquiries through Instagram, which is completely new and crazy to me that it's actually working. But yeah, I'm going with it. But my biggest, I think my biggest source of marketing as well is also my email list. I email weekly, and so I have a really kind of close relationship, as much as you can have a relationship with an email list. And I get people talking to me through my emails and wanting to book inquiry calls through my emails. But most importantly, people refer me to other people. So even if they don't want to hire me, they recommend me to other people. Which is all I can ask for, really.
Steve Folland: I mean, I think you're great on Instagram stories. Your personality does come across.
Eman Ismail: Thank you.
Steve Folland: But I remember, and this was when you won non-employee of the week award back in the Being Freelance community, you'd said something about, everybody at the time ... maybe it was the beginning of the year.
Eman Ismail: Yes.
Steve Folland: Everybody was talking about how to put my rates up. And so on and so forth. But you came at it with a totally different language, and approach. I think you were on Instagram stories saying, "Hey, I'm giving myself a pay raise." Was that right, or have I misquoted you?
Eman Ismail: Yeah, no, exactly. I'm giving myself a pay raise in the new year. So if you want to work with me on my lower rates, book me now before the new year hits.
Steve Folland: Did that work?
Eman Ismail: It did. It did. And I had people get in touch with me. And I remember one person in particular said, "Hey, I want to book an inquiry call before your rates go up if that's okay." So that, I guess creating that sense of urgency did work. But again, even on LinkedIn, I'm not concerned with being professional. I'm just myself, and I find that that really works and people connect with you. And that's what copywriting is about anyway, it's just about connecting with people on a human level. So I do that through my social media too, and I find that that's what works best. So, I'm myself. I talk about money a lot on social media. I talk about the issues that copywriters have with people not wanting to pay them enough. I struggled with that so much at the beginning.
Eman Ismail: I used to have a lot of people come up to me, as most copywriters do, and most business owners, especially service-based business owners will. People saying, "Oh, I can't afford that. But how about this?" And then they throw out some ridiculous number. And I talk about that a lot, because I want people to know that I'm not here for that. I don't even engage with that anymore. And as I've been more open talking about money and prices and rates, which again, has been a very gradual thing that has taken a lot of time to get to this point. And my mentor is a big reason that I'm able to do this now. But I'm open about it. And so I find that I don't even have those conversations anymore. If somebody can't afford my rates, the conversation goes, "Oh, I'm sorry, that's out of my budget," and my response is, "That's completely fine. I completely get it." As opposed to, "Oh, that's so expensive. Don't you think your rates are a little bit high? Can't you do it for this price?"
Steve Folland: I did love the phrase of giving yourself a pay raise. It just frames it differently in the client's mind as well, because they all want a pay raise.
Eman Ismail: Yeah.
Steve Folland: It's different to the costs going up. I liked it. Where do you work, by the way? You talked about getting a good work life balance. Do you work from home? Or a co-work space, or ... ?
Eman Ismail: I don't work from home. I tried working from home. That didn't work for me. So I tried working from cafes, that did not work for me. Although I still love going to a café. But working there every day it doesn't work, and I spent so much money. And so now I work in a coworking space, which, I love it. It's a really pretty coworking space. So you come in and you instantly feel inspired, and just happy to be in such a nice space. And everyone here is so nice, so ... I spend my mornings working, and then I can go to the café at lunch and sit down with someone and have lunch. So that social aspect is really important as well, because I found that I felt really isolated at the beginning. So yes, I love working by myself. But I also realized that I do still need to communicate with other humans.
Steve Folland: Yeah, for sure. Do you find that you're always thinking about work?
Eman Ismail: Yeah. And I have no idea how to switch it off, at all. Yeah. Always. Always.
Steve Folland: Yeah. I've gone there once.
Eman Ismail: You can't help me either.
Steve Folland: Apart from, actually, I think when I am doing arts and crafts or playing with my daughter, or playing football ... This sounds quite sexist, between the boys and the girls, but it's just what they like doing. Or I'm playing football with my son. I do find that finally my mind, it's them that drags me away from the work.
Eman Ismail: See, I ... now I feel really bad, because I have to work really hard to put my brain on pause, even when I am kind of playing with my son. So I turn all notifications off. I turn my emails off. And it's still, I feel like it's always running in the back of my head. Even when it's not at the front. But I do make an effort to really just be present and enjoy what we're doing. But I do find the only time I'm completely switched off is when I'm at the gym. And that's, when I'm running so hard I can't breathe, I have to kind of focus on breathing. So that's the only time my brain actually switches off.
Steve Folland: Is exercise a regular part of your routine?
Eman Ismail: Yes. It wasn't until about two years ago. I don't think I'd ever really stepped foot in a gym before that. And then someone recommended going to the gym, just for your mental wellbeing and to stay healthy and all that good stuff. And so I did. But I found it really hard to go by myself, so I got a personal trainer and I've loved it since then. And most weeks, I have a training session. I'm going through a bit of a bad period at the moment where I've kind of not gone for a month ish. But see, now I'm in that stage where you just feel really ugh, and then you just need to get back in the gym. So I'm at that point now, where I remember why I started working out in the first place, and that I really do need to get back into it. So yeah.
Steve Folland: I like the fact that you see the value in investing in your work and in your health, and it's like yeah, it can be ... A lot of these things can seem expensive.
Eman Ismail: Absolutely.
Steve Folland: But you're going for it.
Eman Ismail: Yeah. And again, it took me a really long time to get there. But I've always felt pretty good about investing in my business. And I've always been happy to invest in courses and mentors. Because I see the results, and it comes back so quickly, and I truly believe in learning from people who know more than you if it's available to you. I'm there. But I found it really difficult to invest in my health and my wellbeing. So that's been a real mindset shift, because yeah, I had to sit down and just kind of have a talk with myself. Because I'm willing to invest in work, but I'm not willing to invest in me just being happy and healthy and well. So it hurts me a little bit, the investment that I make, still, with the training and the gym and all that stuff. But again, it's necessary. And I can see the effect that it has on me when I'm not doing that stuff. So it's important for me to stay with it.
Steve Folland: One thing we haven't touched upon, which I know you do. And again, because I've seen you talk about it on Instagram stories. So it works. Is, you do live workshops, right?
Eman Ismail: I do, yes. I started doing workshops a few months into being a freelance copywriter, actually. And I had a lot of imposter syndrome stuff going through my head. Who am I to run workshops? And, I've only been doing this for three months. But actually, I've always loved doing that kind of thing. And so I thought, "Why not?" And actually someone sat me down and said, I was talking to someone about it, and they said, "Well, what's stopping you from running workshops?" And I said, "I feel like I'm not expert enough, because I've only been a freelance copywriter for three months." Although I had been copywriting for a few years by that point. And they said, "Well, what is an expert? What even is an expert, and who decides what an expert is? And actually, you only need to be a few months ahead of someone else to be more of an expert than them."
Eman Ismail: And that really changed the way that I thought about it, so I started doing the workshops. My first one went really well, I got really good feedback, so I continued. And eventually I partnered up with Lloyd's Bank, my local bank in the city center, and I've been doing workshops for them. And I do a workshop every two months for them. So one of them is a copywriting workshop about how to write your website and email marketing and all that stuff. And then the second is a blogging workshop. Both are for business owners and both are free. So I make a lot of great contacts through that as well.
Steve Folland: How did you end up working with Lloyd's?
Eman Ismail: Well, I went to one of their networking events. And during the networking events, which they do monthly, they have a 20 minute slot for a speaker. And I remember who the speaker was, actually, and she was doing a really good job. And I just thought, "I love public speaking, and I think I can do this. So why am I not doing this?" And I kind of looked around and spotted someone in a Lloyd's uniform, and I just went up to her and I asked her, "How might I get involved in this? How can I be a speaker?" And she said, "Oh, actually, you're talking to the right person, because I manage the events." Yeah. "So here's my business card, drop me an email and we'll chat." And we did.
Eman Ismail: And we started talking about me doing a speaking event, but when she followed me on LinkedIn and she saw that I was doing copywriting workshops, she asked me to do a workshop instead. So we did one workshop and that went really well, and so they asked me to continue doing them. So I've been doing that for almost, I think it's been over a year now that I've been doing that for them. Maybe nine months-ish. And yeah. So that's how that went. I just really believe as well that if you don't ask, you'll never get. So, and the worst that someone can say is no. So.
Steve Folland: Brilliant. So they pay you to do the course, even though the attendees get it for free, because it's part of their helping the local business community, if I'm right, yeah?
Eman Ismail: No. They do not pay me. It's completely free.
Steve Folland: Oh, they don't pay you.
Eman Ismail: Yeah.
Steve Folland: Beg your pardon.
Eman Ismail: No, it's fine. It's completely free. But it's interesting because I did sit down and think about this. But I found that, number one, I had an issue pricing my own workshops, because I would kind of get four or five people turn up to my paid workshops. And then eventually I realized that I think the problem, because I wanted more like 10 people in my workshops. I think I was underpricing my workshops. So people, not enough people were buying the tickets because actually it was too cheap. And it was 110 pounds a ticket. But my competition on Eventbrite, when I checked it out, their copywriting workshops were 400 to 700 pounds. So I thought, well, okay. I can't put as much effort and resource into that, because it takes so much energy to book the venue, to do all the marketing, to do the presentation. And at that point it was a full day workshop. By the end of it I'd just be so exhausted, and I wouldn't be able to do anything else for the rest of the day.
Eman Ismail: And then Lloyd's presented me with this opportunity which, and they were really up front right from the beginning and they said, "This isn't paid. But everyone who does these workshops says that they have a lot of opportunities that come from it." So I figured, well, why not? Let me try it. And this was a two hour workshop. I don't have to worry about marketing or sorting out the venue or anything. I literally came up with my presentation one time, and I just show up on the day. Everything is already set up for me. I do my workshop, I make sure that I get all the email addresses of everyone that attends, and then each time I create another 14, 15 ... I think my last workshop I had about 20 people come. So 20 contacts I can then stay in touch with.
Eman Ismail: And some of those get in touch with me to talk to me about hiring me. And many of them don't because they're business owners coming to a free event because they're right at the beginning of their business journey. But actually those are the strongest relationships that I've created, and it's those who are always my biggest supporters and who are always tagging me in other posts of people looking for copywriters and who are sharing my emails and sharing their opinions of me. And so it's been really beneficial, even though I haven't been paid for it.
Eman Ismail: And also, it's brought me lots of other opportunities. And not just with workshops. Other people see me doing workshops and they automatically think, "Okay, well, she must know what she's talking about, because she gets all these great testimonials." And it's actually brought a whole other heap of opportunities in terms of building my authority as a copywriter.
Steve Folland: Love it. It's like you've squeezed six years of career into two years.
Eman Ismail: I don't know about that. But I really enjoy what I do. And I actually love running the business side of things, which is one of the things I was most scared about. But I actually really love that. So that helps a lot.
Steve Folland: I was going to ask. Because there seemed to be ... right at the beginning of this, you said you wanted to start a business. You created a business name. You seemed to approach it as a business. Maybe the fact that you invest in it is also because you're investing in a business rather than just in yourself. You do seem to have a very business approach to it, rather than, "Hey, I love writing."
Eman Ismail: Yeah. Absolutely. And I think maybe that comes from the fact that I've always been surrounded by entrepreneurs. Four of the closest men to me are all business owners. I grew up watching them kind of appear at 2:00 in the afternoon, 11:00 in the morning, whenever they wanted. And I always used to think, "What do they do that allows them to just be anywhere and everywhere whenever they want?" And so a lot of people ask me, "Oh, how did your family feel about you quitting your job and becoming self-employed? Especially when you have a little boy." And actually they were all really supportive. Because I've always grown up in that kind of environment where so many people around me were entrepreneurs. And I always felt like that was what I was going to do, but I just, I really didn't have the confidence to.
Steve Folland: Now, if you could tell your younger self one thing about being freelance, what would that be?
Eman Ismail: Nothing is a mistake in business. I think everything is just a lesson learned. And as long as you can learn from it and do better next time, I really do believe that nothing is a mistake.
Steve Folland: Eman, thank you so much. And all the best being freelance.
Eman Ismail: Thank you. Thank you so much. I'm so happy to be here.