Documenting the process - Data Visualisation Designer Nadieh Bremer
Nadieh was working full-time when she launched a personal project with a friend. They documented the process closely, sharing in-depth blog posts that explained the hows and whys behind their decisions. Six months later, Google reached out to them and became a first client. And so Nadieh’s freelance story begins.
She talked to friends, read books, got an accountant and started putting herself out there. She kept sharing those in-depth blog posts and soon started speaking at events.
“I’m not a person that does sales,” Nadia says. Instead, she shows what she can do and hopes that people who like it will get in touch.
And it’s working for her this far. Tune in to hear her story.
More from Nadieh Bremer
More from Steve Folland
Join us in the Being Freelance Community
Transcript of the Being Freelance podcast with Data Visualisation Designer Nadieh Bremer and Steve Folland
Steve Folland: How about we get started hearing how you got started being freelance?
Nadieh Bremer: Yeah, so I'm actually an astronomer. Then I became a data scientist and then I became interested in data visualization. And I was then working for consultancy, but I got a job as a database designer at another company called ARGen. And, I was working, creating dashboards for about a year. And in the meantime I started on this gigantic personal project collaboration. And for six months I was creating the creative data visualizations on the side, and I just started noticing that was exactly the kind of data visualization that I enjoyed doing, not dashboards.
Nadieh Bremer: So, after six months I got, well we, for the collaboration, we got an email from Google News Lab saying, "Do you want to work together?" And, I was like, "Gosh, yeah!" This freelancing thing, it seems kind of cool, and I've always been financially scared to do it, but with a client like Google as your first client, that would be a very good way to start. So, I didn't want to say no. So, then I was like, "Okay, let's, let's try this thing."
Steve Folland: Whoa. Okay. So, much to rewind over. For a start, you did say you were an astronomer?
Nadieh Bremer: Yes, I'm officially a graduated astronomer.
Steve Folland: Wow. And, did you ever work as an astronomer?
Nadieh Bremer: No, not in any kind of business sense. No.
Steve Folland: Okay. So, you graduated in astronomy, which is fascinating, but I'll park that. And got into data visualization. So, how did Google find your personal project? How were you putting it out there?
Nadieh Bremer: So it was like 12 projects a year long, one project per month. But we both made, me and Shirley Woo, we both made a project, and we had done two months secretly, silently. And then we had created a website for those two projects and explained the project, the process that there was going to be 10 more, and we were creating these very long design blogs about how the final version came to be. And before that point we'd already done other personal projects but much smaller. So we'd had a small Twitter following. And then we could put it out there on Twitter, thinking that maybe our friends would like it. And then it was a little bit bigger than we expected. So more people started liking it and following us. And so we met people that are more famous in the data visualization society. And one of these people, that was actually the art director for Google. So we got into contact and then he reached out a few months later.
Steve Folland: Amazing. So while you're working doing dashboards, and you know, obviously I speak to different people doing lots of different jobs, it doesn't matter whether we understand what dashboards means. It was obviously a bit that you didn't like doing. But your data visualization is almost like these intricate kind of designs and patterns, that I've seen anyway. So as well as creating those, you were doing it behind the scenes. You're like breaking it down, right?
Nadieh Bremer: Yes, exactly. Yeah. Very like from idea to data, finding, gathering, cleaning, sketching and making it.
Steve Folland: How did that then change? Because I mean there's one thing for Google to take an interest and for them to get in touch. But then to actually go, "Okay, right, I'm a freelance business now." What was that process like for you?
Nadieh Bremer: I think it went fairly painlessly in that sense. I talked to a lot of friends who were freelancers to get their tips. I read books about the do's and don'ts during freelancing in the Netherlands, thankfully it's not very difficult to start up your own freelance business. So I got an accountant, I got an accounting system and I got started. And then it was just putting out there that I was available for hire. And again, through my Twitter, I was able to slowly start finding people that were interested in hiring me. And then I also tried, I added Instagram, which I never did before, and I was becoming more active on LinkedIn. Just sending stuff on there, just really trying to get this word out so hopefully people would start coming back to me. I'm not the person that can do sales. I'm more of the person that does, "This is what I do. Look at it and if you like it please come and find me."
Steve Folland: Just to put things in perspective, when was it that you went freelance?
Nadieh Bremer: It was at the start of 2017, so January 1st.
Steve Folland: And so your first client was Google. What does it look like for you? Is that like working with one company for six months, or is it working with multiple companies at once? How does it look like for you?
Nadieh Bremer: For me, I prefer to have three, maybe four clients at the same time. They're all ranging between something from two weeks to, maybe two months are the longest ones that I've done. And then I really enjoy this sort of being able to work on one client for the Monday and then switch to another client for a Tuesday while I wait on feedback from the client the day before. If I've worked too long on the same project, days after end, I get creatively drained, and having multiple clients really helps me to, well, I look forward to the next day when I'm working on the other thing again.
Steve Folland: Oh, that's interesting. Yeah. How do you find dealing with clients?
Nadieh Bremer: Generally, it's okay. I mean, I've had some lesser interactions, but generally it's very, well. I think it's maybe because what I do is very, it's a niche of a niche. It's not, database, it's very creative, artful database. So people that reach out to me really want that kind of style. So in that sense, there's not much trouble in figuring out if I'm the right person or not for what they really want. But sometimes things can go a little bit awry when it's more about the contract and stuff and liabilities and these things.
Steve Folland: How have you coped with that? You won't stop working till you've got something in place? Or you a little bit more relaxed about it? How have you approached the business side of things?
Nadieh Bremer: I started out being very strict, like I wouldn't start working until the contract was signed. Preferably even if the first payment or invoice was sent, not received because now I mean some companies take like six weeks to pay, but at least it was, it was sent out. I have become a little more lax, I have to admit, because setting up that sort of statement of work or contract is just such a hassle. And so now it depends on how the initial conversations went with the client, and how much I trust them, or if they've been referred to me by somebody I trust a lot, then I will be a little bit more lax. And if I feel like the client may be a little bit scatterbrained, or maybe needs, I need to make sure that it's fixed in a contract, or if the project is so big that I really need to make it into a contract, I will become more strict. But for the smaller ones, and especially the ones I've done, like returning clients, I will be very lax.
Steve Folland: And where are your clients? Are they around the world? Are they mainly in Europe or mainly in the Netherlands?
Nadieh Bremer: They are mainly in the US and in Europe. And actually I have very few in the Netherlands. But I guess most of them US-based. Yeah. Which can make it tricky with time zones. How do you cope with that? I'm a morning person and San Francisco is nine hours difference. So it's just learning how to do evening calls. And still being mentally there enough and not already halfway going to sleep. It's not my favourite thing. I really try and do calls only at the start, maybe like an introduction call and maybe a kick-off call. But after that it's mostly email conversation for me.
Steve Folland: But other than that, how would you structure your day? So you weight it towards the morning, do you?
Nadieh Bremer: Yeah. So typically start at 8:00. Try and spend no more than an hour, maybe two on emails that have come in during when I was asleep or in the evening. Which is quite nice because most of my clients are US-based. It stays very quiet in my mornings. So I sent those out and then I start on like the client project that I have in mind then. And that may go on until lunch. I might do something else, like maybe I need to make a portfolio page, might do that for two hours. And then the rest of the day I spend on the project that I was working on. And then also the other calls come in, maybe calls with other freelancers to talk about very specific stuff, calls with clients, prospective clients. That starts at around 4:00 and goes on to like 7:00. But not every night of course, but generally that's how it's structured.
Steve Folland: You mentioned other freelancers do you collaborate with people on actual projects or is that more just a social thing?
Nadieh Bremer: It's both. So I actually worked together, which really from that bigger collaboration that got me started into freelancing, we worked together on several very big projects that we just couldn't do alone. So now actually we've been having a lot of calls. She's also in San Francisco. I'm having a lot of calls because we just were publishing a book together about that project. So there's a lot of calls going back and forth about the specifics. I'm also in a committee to organize a conference on database and most of the other committee members are in the US. So that's also why I have evening calls. And some times it's just fun to like, "Hey, I haven't talked to you in two months, why don't we do a call?"
Steve Folland: Whoa. So I've not spoken to many people who are organizing a conference with people on the other side of the world. How have you ended up doing that?
Nadieh Bremer: So, the person in charge of organizing the conference, she's a good friend of mine. And she just reached out and she's like, "Do you want to join the committee and organize the conference?" And during my university days, I was in so many committees doing, organizing all kinds of stuff. And it's been, I don't know, six, seven years since I've done that. And I was just feeling like, "Yeah, I guess I am ready to do another committee now."
Steve Folland: What does that look like for you? What does it actually take?
Nadieh Bremer: In all honesty, I could not tell you yet because it's literally only been four weeks that we started planning the conference. So I've only had like three calls, but it's going to be intense I've heard. But for now it's mostly thinking about structure, thinking about a name, thinking about a location. So it's a lot of brainstorming still, and a lot of Google docs sharing, and putting up comments and other people's ideas and that stuff. But I am prepared for the onslaught of hours that I need to invest in the future.
Steve Folland: That's so cool. And what are you hoping, other than it sounds like you get a bit of a buzz out of organizing things, picking up on that. What do you hope to get out of that? Is it potential clients that the conference is aimed at or is it peers, I guess, like other people like yourself?
Nadieh Bremer: Yeah, it's really aimed at peers. And I'm doing this really to get this experience to work together very intensely with a select group of people for a specific time to set up, create something that hopefully will help the community. That drives me to be able to make something that will be useful for other data visualizing people.
Steve Folland: And are you involved in communities in person and online already?
Nadieh Bremer: Yes, but I'm not extremely active yet. There is something that's called the data visualization society that's been up since a year and they have a gigantic Slack channel, which almost scares me away due to how big it is. So my community involvement is that I write these blogs and design posts. So I share my knowledge in that sense and create code snippets and I guess I'm more of a sender, I've not really yet been a back and forth kind of person in my online activities.
Steve Folland: Let's talk about that day though. Cause that sounds like going through your process, learning out loud kind of thing. That sounds like a big part of your marketing.
Nadieh Bremer: Yeah, definitely at the start, when I was learning to program in the tool that I use to create my data visualizations, I would have something very specific like, how do I put text on a curved line? And I could not find a tutorial for that. And I would spend hours piecing it together from stack overflow and other forum and these kinds of websites. And I figured it out. And then I was like, "Oh I might as well, I want other people to make it, have it easier." So I created a blog about it. But also partly because I knew at some point in the future I would probably want to put text on a curve line again and now I could read my own blog, which I do.
Nadieh Bremer: But it was mostly for the people. And having these design posts, I just really, I always enjoy seeing other people, when they see the final result. And I'm overwhelmed by how beautiful it looks, I really want to understand how they came to that point and the thought process and the work in progress. Because I so enjoy that from other people, but I don't see it very often. I do it myself, so I try and have these design posts for my favourite own projects. They are really, really, really, really, really long, with lots of work in progress, and the ugly parts and then slowly flowing into the final thing that I presented.
Steve Folland: I mean how much work goes into those? Is it a regular thing or is it just, I guess a bit more ad hoc as and when?
Nadieh Bremer: Yeah, it's more ad hoc. So it's like when the opportunity arises, when I feel like I have a new project that went through some interesting phases or I have a new thing that I might want to teach people, then I will put it on my list of things to do. And once it's on there at some point it will come to pass. Because I really want to scratch it off the list. And, It takes, I think the last blog post that I wrote about, the biggest project I've ever done, took me two full days to make from scratch. And I always take hundreds of screenshots while development. So at least I have all of the stuff that I need, but I just need to curate it and write my story around it.
Steve Folland: That's brilliant. And so I'm just intrigued, is that being seen by your peers who then might recommend you for work? Or is the sort of industry that you work in basically your potential clients are also, I guess geeking out over that as well? Who is reading it and seeing it and how is it benefiting you, other than being your own library of work?
Nadieh Bremer: Well actually it's both of those things. So I've had clients reach out to me that are like, "Oh I saw this piece of you and then it came across the design blog," and I'm like "Wow!". And then, "So maybe we can do something together and that my flow into an actual project." I guess these people though are a little bit more technically inclined themselves already to want to read this sort of design blog. So it could be managers from a specific department. And then there are others, I also have heard when, I also speak at conferences, so they say "That person referred to me, saw your work online, or you speak at a conference. And then I went to your website and saw your portfolio. I think your style is what we are looking for. Can we maybe work on blah blah blah."
Steve Folland: So you're speaking at conferences. Did you go after that, or did people come to you after seeing your blog?
Nadieh Bremer: So the first time I applied to this sort of call for proposals, it was really just because the speakers get a free plane, ticket hotel and ticket to the conference.
Steve Folland: That's a good deal.
Nadieh Bremer: Yeah. So that was really my first reasoning because I really wanted to meet other people and database and this was a database conference back in mid-2016. I have such stage fright. I couldn't sleep for two days before that. But after I came off the stage, this feeling of, I don't know, adrenaline and rush and having told your story and then talking to the people afterwards about what you just told, it was something that, after that point is like, "Oh yeah, this is actually quite fun. It's stressful as heck. It takes a lot of time to create these presentations. But it's so much fun to connect to people in this way."
Steve Folland: See, because you, you mentioned telling your story. Is that the main thing that you speak about or is that what you started with, and then you developed talks? Do you have some that you keep doing, again and again, your greatest hits? Or is each one a new one?
Nadieh Bremer: These days, I tend to create a new talk after about a year. So the talks that I make are interactive slides, so it's basically, every slide is a webpage and I slide through the webpages. And that gives me the possibility to have these anime, data visualization, interactivity inside my slides. So they take a month and a half or two months of evening work to create. So I create one a year and then slowly my library of possible presentations to give grows. Although I usually do, my most recent one, I do try and see if the audience of the place that invites me to speak fits that. Because I like talking about, a little bit more the technical side, but sometimes the management kind of conferences ask me to and I'm not quite sure we're the right fit. If they are not creating data visit themselves, this will probably be boring to them.
Steve Folland: Ah, and how many talks would you say you do a year then?
Nadieh Bremer: I think I do like 10 or 12 internationally, and then a bunch more just locally here the Netherlands. Have meetups and like small businesses.
Steve Folland: Congratulations.
Nadieh Bremer: Thank you.
Steve Folland: But that's no small feat basically. Because as you say, they take a lot of effort. They, I'm guessing they take quite a bit out of your time that you would be doing client work as well.
Nadieh Bremer: Exactly, yes. When I started freelancing, I was just saying yes to every kind of conference that asked me to come and then I started noticing that sometimes they do have a speaker fee, but it never covers that amount of time that you, as a freelancer, cannot work just to travelling to adjusting the preparing, the actual being there, then going back, it's such a chunk of time. So I used to do more, but now I'm like, "Okay, maybe a little bit less, maybe four in the spring season, maybe four in the fall season, if people ask me at all," and then usually one or two may come on again that I didn't foresee, but I'm like, "Oh, that sounds like a cool conference. I actually wouldn't want to go there myself."
Steve Folland: beyond that initial ticket. And as you say, the fee isn't, you know, the fee isn't your income. The fee is nice. Have you noticed a benefit to your business?
Nadieh Bremer: It's very hard to say. So I do have people that reach out to me and they say that they've been referred to by someone else. What I don't really have a view on, is if that person saw me speak at a conference, or if that person saw me through online means. So I don't quite know. And that makes it tricky to figure out how many of these conferences should I be doing. I mean in general, it does lend you with this sort of marker of, "This person probably knows what she's speaking about." A kind of label that you get invited to conferences. But how much, if it's financially worth it, I truly don't know. But I've now compromised with the fact that I want to go to conferences myself and these are really good deals to go to them. So I'm maybe a little bit more picky about the kind of conferences I say yes to. If they appeal to me personally, then I will say yes.
Steve Folland: That's great. Now your trade is Visual Cinnamon, isn't it?
Nadieh Bremer: Yes.
Steve Folland: Is that how you started or is that something you've created recently?
Nadieh Bremer: It's how we started. Even before I was freelancing, I had this blog, what was again, blog spot? Blog post? The Google version of this free blog.
Steve Folland: Yeah, Blog spot.
Nadieh Bremer: Yeah, that one. And somebody told me that, "Oh, you should get your own domain name." And then I needed a domain name and that became Visual Cinnamon because everything that seemed logical was taken. And then, really, I pulled up a website that gave me 20 random words on each click, and I just read through them and I clicked several times. And then cinnamon was one of the words, and I was like, "Oh, cinnamon, you know, I like that word. I like that word. It's easy to say it's easy to write. It's like it's a good spice. It makes everything better." So it became Visual Cinnamon. That much thought went into it. And then I had the website and then making freelance, yeah, now I'm stuck with the brand.
Steve Folland: That's good though. So do people know you as Visual Cinnamon? Do they know you by your name? Is it just a combination, doesn't matter?
Nadieh Bremer: It's a combination. Some people just know me by Visual Cinnamon and others, nobody by name, because I do use my name a lot in more of these, on Twitter. I'm just Nadieh Bremer, and not Visual Cinnamon. So there's a mix from where, how people know me.
Steve Folland: You said that you like to make a list. How do you stay productive? Is that like a physical list? Are you a Trello or a sauna type person? Like how do you stay on top of things?
Nadieh Bremer: So I've created this extensive Google sheet where I have several sheets and one of them is my pipeline. So client, possible clients, what is the last action that I did to them? When do I want to reach out to them again, if I haven't heard from them before date X? And when were their calls? And I look at this every morning. There are some other things in there as well, like hours that I've actually spent, hours that I'm planning to spend in the next weeks on possible clients. So I can see how much bandwidth I have for possible new projects. And a few more of these tags that have grown over the years. I use Toggle to track my time. And then the other thing is that for things to do during the week, I have this giant stack of square papers. I don't know what the English term is for them. It's like the small like post-it like stickers, papers.
Steve Folland: Yeah, post-it notes.
Nadieh Bremer: Yeah, but they don't stick. But anyway,
Steve Folland: Oh non-sticky post-it notes.
Nadieh Bremer: Exactly. They should have a shorter name for that.
Steve Folland: Yeah
Nadieh Bremer: So I just write out like, "Oh, do this for client X, do that for client Y," and then when it's done or make a portfolio for the project what and then I can just, I really scratch it off with a pen. Very, very clearly. A lot of ink is wasted on scratching it out when it's done.
Steve Folland: I've got to say, I felt that recently. Every now and again I try and get really organized with Trello and then I think "But I really enjoy crossing things out on paper."
Nadieh Bremer: Yes, It's this feeling of accomplishment, of being able to push it aside out of your mind with things to do.
Steve Folland: That's really cool though, with your google sheets. I think sometimes we forget how good, so you just flick through it every day?
Nadieh Bremer: Yeah, I mean I have a few clients at any time and a few things in the pipeline. It's not something that I cannot sort of, it's small enough so I don't need to have some sort of fancy other thing on top of that. Thankfully.
Steve Folland: Yeah. No, but it works. No, it's cool. Are you somebody who sets goals? You obviously have a lot going on, and you're obviously organized, but are you somebody who thinks longterm about what you're doing?
Nadieh Bremer: I used to a long, long time ago. And then I came at the end of astronomy and I didn't know what I wanted. And then since then, I have just one, I wanted to have a goal, but I've basically only been following my passion. Like what is the thing I enjoy most doing right now? Or what is the thing that I think I will be enjoying most? So at first, that was data science. Then I discovered like, "Oh my God, this data vis thing" and then I sort of rotated that way and then I went into dashboards - using the word again, dashboarding, and then I discovered more like ah, creative data vis, and then I turned that way again into freelancing and I have literally no idea if my next year is going to be exactly the same as now, or if it's going to be different because something else came up upon my path.
Steve Folland: Yeah. But whatever it is. Do you think that you'll be sharing that process along the way?
Nadieh Bremer: Yeah. I do think I will. Yeah. I learn so much from other people talking very honestly about what they have chosen, why they have done things, or how they are doing things. Both from a personal and technical perspective that I just want to give that back as well from my perspective. Just be another voice.
Steve Folland: What would you say is the biggest challenge for you being freelance?
Nadieh Bremer: I think for me it' setting up good contracts. It's really strange. The thing it has to do with, in the Netherlands, when you're a freelancer, you as a person, is the company. So that means if shit happens, something that was very wrong, they can take you for everything that you have. That's including your house, including all of your savings. And that frightens me. And there's no insurance that I've been able to find that covers that. Especially in working with US companies because the lawsuits there can go a little bit higher than Dutch. The insurance companies are willing to pay. So it's always this really, really looking through contracts that they send because often I need to accept the contract of the client. But it doesn't mean that I can't make changes. So I need to be very careful in reading all of the legalese and always adding, "Can you put in this piece about liability that says that you cannot Sue me for more than what you paid me for?"
Nadieh Bremer: And some of them will accept that others won't accept that. I mean, you hope of course that it's never actually going to happen, but because it's because I am this control freak and financially want to have some sort of assurance, contracts in a way scare me. And that's why I find them difficult to do.
Steve Folland: Okay. If there was one thing you could tell your younger self, what would that be?
Nadieh Bremer: Just keep doing what you think you love the most and it'll work itself out.
Steve Folland: Nadieh, it has been so nice speaking to you. All the best being freelance.
Nadieh Bremer: Thank you very much.