Steve Folland: It is time for the Being Freelance podcast 200th episode, live in London. And very grateful to Underpinned for hosting and for my guest for being here. We have got Kieron Lewis, hey Kieron.

Kieron Lewis: Hello, hello.

Steve Folland: Kieron meet the beautiful people. Beautiful people, Kieron. Although you kind of go by the name of Kay, right?

Kieron Lewis: The alter ego. Yeah.

Steve Folland: Should I be calling you Kay?

Kieron Lewis: You can call me Kay. Only grandma calls me Kieron to be fair, it's weird.

Steve Folland: Oh, okay. And I know that because originally tonight we were going to have Olga & Kay. So basically Olga & Kay, two freelancers who work independently, but they also collaborate. Where's Olga?

Kieron Lewis: Olga is on a photo shoot in Marrakesh casually, so yeah. Might come along...

Steve Folland: Marrakesh or Hackney, Marrakesh or... So anyway, Olga is not here, but we're going to hear part of your story anyway. So as ever, how about we get started hearing how you got started being freelance?

Kieron Lewis: Sure. I mean it's one of those questions. So graduated seven, eight years ago? And off the bat off that just basically doing loads of work for friends, finding out what's going on online, social media. And then obviously doing loads of work in a sense for free just for exposure, which sounds like a really rubbish thing to do. I don't know if I'm allowed to swear on this. But the idea was doing loads of work just for exposure and realizing actually if I'm doing this work, let's actually charge for it properly. Which is where I started to do more and more work as I got older. And then I met Olga along the journey, who is a much a better freelancer in a sense. She has her priorities straight in terms of financially how she does it. She has an accountant, she's proper legit, and I'm just kind of winging it basically to the next thing. But yeah, I mean together we kind of come together and do Olga & Kay.

Steve Folland: Okay. To put everything in perspective, how long have you been freelancing?

Kieron Lewis: I've been freelancing for eight years.

Steve Folland: And when did you and Olga start collaborating?

Kieron Lewis: We met four years ago on a photo shoot.

Steve Folland: Okay. So let's cut straight on that first bit. How did you go about finding your first clients?

Kieron Lewis: So in fact, actually, it sort of stemmed off from... so when I was 19 I used to do a summer job in [Barbican 00:02:12] in a for an advertising agency. And every summer I would go back because it was at the time of my girlfriend's dad who was CEO. People you know, right? So, utilized that and then obviously whilst at university still able to do some freelance work for them. So there's a lot of advertising work. Back then it was Flash, I think you guys know about flash, but a very, very old-school work and it was doing stuff for MasterCard and doing stuff for Miss Dior campaign. But obviously doing that whilst at university. So it was kind of not free. It was freelance of course, but it was almost like a taster into what it would be like if I want to make this actually a full-time gig

Steve Folland: As the full-time gig police come in to pay you out. So, how did it evolve? Like what did you decide to do?

Kieron Lewis: So I guess off the bat of that, it was... I'm one of those guys, I live by to-do lists, really weird. To-do list, and I love to network, and I hate that word network, actually just meeting people for coffee. And I found that once when I was at university, especially second and third year first year is always a bit of a doss right? But second and third year I was active on LinkedIn, and Tumblr, and pretty much every platform that creators would basically be on. And then just finding people within my industry who were in my field, who I wanted to share, work with, who I wanted to kind of get their experience. And I literally, sporadically kind of emailed as many people as I can. I'm just saying, would you like to grab a coffee? And it was actually my kind of starting block in terms of networking, meeting people.

Kieron Lewis: And after part of that, that actually led to a lot of freelance work. Just initially casually having a coffee and then showing my work and getting the feedback and then, and yeah, kind of grew from there.

Steve Folland: And they came knocking. So how, how did you turn that into a business though, other than keeping the receipts for the coffee?

Kieron Lewis: I mean I don't really pay for coffee, that was quite good actually. I guess to an extent it kind of came to a point where obviously you've got all these... Well I'm going to say all these clients. I mean I'm fresh out of university, so still kind of finding my feet to an extent. And it was a case of kind of having all these people that I've kind of networked, and utilized, and thinking, okay, where can I be the best at what I can do for that certain project.

Kieron Lewis: So primarily I work on magazines, editorials, what I do. But with these people that I met along my journey, some of that was digital work, some was branding work, logo design and then kind of utilizing that route, really.

Steve Folland: So, for about four years, you're working solo?

Kieron Lewis: Yeah.

Steve Folland: What were you doing? Were you working from home?

Kieron Lewis: Yeah, sure. So when I first graduated from university, that job I mentioned that I was doing for summer, they offered me a job straight out of university. So, a bit of luck there, really. So I did that for a year, realized, okay, whilst I'm doing that, I was also doing my freelance that I gathered whilst at university and then it got to a point where, okay, how about I make this actually a thing, still living at home? Because there's no way at the time I could have been, even in East London whilst I was freelance at the time.

Kieron Lewis: So it was a case of being at home freelancing, and obviously making as much money as I can, trying to build up a portfolio and build up a bit of a platform for myself. And obviously meeting Olga was kind of a bit of the glue in terms of like, actually a bit of structure, because at the moment up until then I was doing a lot of work and getting paid for it. But things like tax and all that, I mean, I don't know about you guys, but it just goes a bit over my head. So obviously a lot of it was tax, completely tax. Of course, making sure I put that out there. But obviously, you know, it was a learning curve. I've got to be truthfully honest. I had no major skill, barring obviously a degree of seal graphic design and that.

Kieron Lewis: But I had no idea I'd be doing freelance for a long period of time. I've thought, well I'm doing some work for friends, they need some stuff. Doing it for family as well. Do that and then see where I go with it. And then organically, things kind of grew.

Steve Folland: So actually, would you say you didn't actually feel like you were a business or anything until you met Olga?

Kieron Lewis: Yeah, but even the word business... I mean, yeah, to an extent it is a business of course. But the only reason why I'm saying that, business, is I'm thinking like, Oh God, it's like the apprentice. But I think it's the idea of we love to do work that we enjoy to do, and obviously get paid for it. And of course that is a business to an extent, but it's how myself and especially with Olga as well, how we work is that it's all about basic people skills.

Kieron Lewis: We could work with Tom, Dick, and Harry. But if that connection is not really there, then I probably don't want to do that much work for you, because this is no vibe, if that makes sense. So a lot of the work that we do, we do a lot of work with homeless charities as well. And with the Western, the city council that we do, it's all kind of come from having conversations, and then they're sort of scoping us out, us scoping them out. And we've kind of been doing that now for a few years onwards, and it's continued to work.

Steve Folland: So how did you meet Olga?

Kieron Lewis: Yes, so we... This sounds so cheesy now. We met on a photo shoot, because I used to do a bit of, and don't laugh, of modeling back in the day.

Steve Folland: Oh, I see.

Kieron Lewis: And she was a photographer on the day. And, I mean this was going back a few years now, and something happened that morning on my route to that shoot. Bear in mind, I didn't obviously know Olga would be there. And it wasn't a good morning for me. And I was in that mood where I knew I had to do a shoot, and obviously it's a paid gig, but thinking right, okay, let me just quickly do this and get out, you know? And I got there, and I just still wasn't in the mood, and Olga was a photographer at the time and she was saying all these things to kind of make me laugh, and we were talking. And actually she's really cool and we start talking about, obviously my line of work, graphic design. She had been a photographer. We swapped numbers and then we met up, like I think it was a month after that shoot at South Bank, and then we started to think about, you know what, how about we just... At the time there was no idea of starting a business, that's for sure.

Kieron Lewis: But it was the idea of okay, I'm a graphic designer, you're a photographer. We are both interested in documenting the space around us, community-wise. Why don't we just try and do a few projects off the back of that. Also, I mean kind of so background wise, Olga's from Latvia, I'm from South London, Brixton, the two very, very different, obviously you can imagine. And I think that was a talking point for us, learning about the differences of the upbringings and you know, how you view community and society. So on the back of that, a lot of the projects we do is actually in essence of that, in terms of documenting, which I do a lot of homeless projects and things of that, you know?

Steve Folland: But it's one thing meeting for a drink, and thinking yeah, we should do some stuff together. But how did you actually make that?

Kieron Lewis: What? Put it to-

Steve Folland: Yeah, how did you actually end up working together?

Kieron Lewis: Do you know, I want to give you some like profound meaning, but generally I remember we met up at South bank and we just had a few beers, we just got talking, we just thought, let's just do something. I know it sounds like right, okay, how much things you need to do to make it happen. Because at the time as well I was just doing a bit of modeling and I was working full-time, but I remember thinking, so at that job I was in at the time was an advertising agency in London. I won't say names because I don't want to... Granted, it was a bad one. But they were a good agency, well at the time. But I remember thinking to myself, Oh God, this job is a bit soul destroying, but obviously it's paying what it's paying. So what can I do outside of that realm of full-time, which is why I was doing the freelance.

Kieron Lewis: And then obviously when I met Olga, it just made sense to do more projects that I enjoy doing on the side. And then with Olga, seeing where that goes.

Steve Folland: But, how did you actually get the work?

Kieron Lewis: So me and Olga, it's a shame that she wasn't able to make it today, but how we were... Olga is a very cool character, first of all. So, Latvian born very chilled. Her thinking is very clinical. I'm more of a, I don't want to say winging it, but it's more of a... Olga's kind of the brains, but to an extent that sounds terrible on my part, but more the brains. But I think it's more of a case of when trying to find clients, a lot of it was obviously emailing people, but also a lot of it was actually going back through people we've met individually and thinking, okay, you know, we've done work for you individually but now we're actually a collaboration and 9 times out of 10 when someone wants a piece of work doing, if it's graphic design, you can kind of swindle a bit of photography in there as well.

Kieron Lewis: There's so much things you can kind of utilize in terms of skillsets, and it made sense to kind of go back to those people and say, cool, you know what? We're actually a collaborative. Do you want to do some more work of us? And then yeah, it came off the back of that. I guess the catalyst of it all was working with Westminster city council, who again, it was the whole networking thing. It was that kind of vibe. And they are a lovely group of guys. And actually that's where we're quite grateful because when we met, when we went to an event hosted by Westminster city council, and we met so many people who needed graphic designers or photographers, because the council are not really the most creative of people you can imagine. And then when they knew... Because we actually went to an event where everyone's from different fields and backgrounds, and myself and Olga were kind of in a corner, like the only creatives in the room. And then obviously everyone's getting up on stage and say what they do, what not.

Kieron Lewis: And it's going to sound really cheesy, but this is God's honest truth. Once we got up and mentioned about we're creative, we're a photographer, graphic designer, my God, the amount of people that swarmed at the end and just saying, okay, I need this done. Can we do it right now? I'm thinking, yeah, drop us an email and see what happens. And the way we thought, okay, this is quite cool now. But obviously bearing in mind we didn't want to just jump on any project that came our way, because we're quite selective to an extent, where you know, I work full-time anyway. So, some extent where you know, this is not my main source of income, if that makes sense? But it's more of a case of doing work that I generally enjoy. So that's where we kind of met people at the event and then we worked from there.

Steve Folland: Okay, so you think the fact that you were working full-time gave you that permission, I guess, to be picky?

Kieron Lewis: Yeah. I mean, without sounding too, you know, Kanye West about it. It was a more of, if that's offensive, I don't know why I said that. But yeah, I guess it's almost that cushion, because when you're full-time, you're guaranteed, you know your income's coming in. And with freelance, it was a case of, at the time, full-time wasn't really cutting it for me, because I was a junior designer at the advertising agency I mentioned. The work was great to an extent, because obviously it's big clients, things like Land Rover, Ikea, boots, really good clients. But when you're a junior at an advertising agency like that, if anyone's from advertising agency, especially if you're a junior, small cog in a big machine.

Kieron Lewis: And I realized actually if I want to be doing work that I really want to be doing, freelance is kind of the way forward.

Steve Folland: And did you present yourself as Olga & Kay?

Kieron Lewis: Yeah we did. Because I remember actually, we had a catch-up before, and we're obviously branding ourselves, and pick out business cards, and we had all these different types of names. And then actually, Olga is quite a short word, K is quite a short word. Why are you making it more complicated than it needs to be? So yeah, off the bat it's literally Olga & Kay.

Steve Folland: So, did you have like a company name to start with? Did you try it?

Kieron Lewis: We had a few names, yeah. I'm trying to think of the names we had now. I had a little Moleskin where I was writing all these names down. But, Olga & Kay was literally-

Steve Folland: And where they company names, as in like brand names, as in not personal?

Kieron Lewis: Do you know what, they're a mixture of both. Because I remember we had lists and lists of different names, but the names weren't just randomly, sporadically picked out of the air. They were all names that had meaning to them, personally as well. And then utilizing, obviously because Olga's from Latvia, I'm from Brixton. It was the idea of whatever we did there'll be an ampersand & in the middle. So that obviously represents a collaboration and then utilizing both sets of upbringings and culture. So we had so many different names, but you know, just literally keep it simple. Olga & Kay. Plus, when we do events we give talks. It's kind of obvious who's Olga. and who's Kay, you know what I mean? To an extent. So that kind of worked well for us.

Steve Folland: And did you form... Do you work as a company, or do... Like, how formal did you guys get?

Kieron Lewis: We did, I mean, so Olga's got an accountant, which again it kind of works for Olga & Kay, and that part. So we were registered as a business, and yeah, I mean it was... We've been doing this for a good part of you know, a good few years now. I mean, first and foremost we're close friends, very good friends. In fact, I don't want to go off pace now, I'm hoping not too much. So her housemate just finished her degree at masters. My fiance was in her group at university, so that's how I met my fiance through Olga's housemate. So we're all kind of nicely linked together in a sense, so we will hang out. And yeah, we work together, but you know, we're mates and we trust each other, so it's all good.

Steve Folland: This would make a good Netflix show, you realize? But that's interesting in itself, just because you're friends doesn't mean that you're going to work well together.

Kieron Lewis: Yeah.

Steve Folland: Has it just been plain sailing, or have you had to figure out how to work together?

Kieron Lewis: Yeah, I mean for sure. I mean, it's weird, because I say we never had any arguments, now we're going to have an argument to let you off this podcast, but it was a case of just scoping, you know, just finding out who we are, and what we want to do. Because there was no facade of around what we really want to get out of this. It was a more of a case of generally I wanted to do something different to what I'm doing at full-time. Olga felt the same way as well, which we've come together and make the most of it.

Kieron Lewis: You know, we do work very well together. She's the kind of person, like I said, who is very... Her brain works in a very strategic way, and together we're a very good balance, for sure. And that reminds me, because we did a recording at BBC radio London a year ago, and we had to talk about the project that we did for the homeless project. I remember while we sat around BBC radio London with the microphones there and whatnot, I definitely went off piece and I was talking about Netflix, and Olga gave me a nudge and was like Kay, like this is cool. But, we're literally going off piece, and now let's go back to what we're doing. I mean there was a linkage to Netflix to what I was saying, but definitely went off on a pace, like I am right now.

Steve Folland: She's keeping you on.

Kieron Lewis: In my head, I can hear her now. Shut up. But yeah.

Steve Folland: So, are you still full-time employed, freelancing on the side?

Kieron Lewis: Yes, I am indeed.

Steve Folland: And so how do you find fitting the two together?

Kieron Lewis: Balance. Quite well. So I also do a lot of volunteering. So, TedXEuston is something that's quite close to my heart. So, to get a background of what that is. So you've probably heard of Ted with the Ted talks. Ted gave a lot of funding to different initiatives all around the world, and TedXEuston primarily focuses on the African continent. So it was the idea of kind of breaking that stigma, what it means to be from Africa, and what it's about. So I worked whilst doing Olga & Kay, whilst doing full-time, also a TedXEuston team during that project.

Kieron Lewis: And that was incredible. I mean, we just literally have done our 10th anniversary. She had Bishopsgate which was 800 people in attendance. And literally, I mean the people we had on stage were people doing amazing things on the continent, whether it was science, music, poetry, just really cool people doing really good things that people over here might not necessarily hear about. So we fly them out, they give talks and obviously my role is to help with the branding and the magazine work, which I've done.

Steve Folland: And Olga does that as well?

Kieron Lewis: Olga helps with the photography as well. So it was funny because I started doing TedXEuston first before Olga did, and then obviously I brought Olga in because that conversation came up where they said, right, we need a photographer, and of course there's only one person in my mind that comes to mind.

Kieron Lewis: So obviously, Olga's been doing it about a year just after I did it.

Steve Folland: So, that's voluntary?

Kieron Lewis: That's voluntary, yeah.

Steve Folland: But, has work come off the back of that? Has that helped you?

Kieron Lewis: So much, yes. I mean I joined the TedX team three years ago, and obviously we're active group of volunteers, and obviously whenever we have an event, I do the magazine work and obviously there's about 800 plus people that attend and we're able to kind of credit ourselves within the magazine so you can kind of see what I'm going with. So 800 people, you know, have a magazine credited by who? Us. Yeah, it came in. I'm not going to say it flooded in, but we definitely had a lot of work off the bat of doing that.

Steve Folland: Yeah. Is there ever a thing where you kind of feel like you've got so much potential, but you're still in a full-time role?

Kieron Lewis: Do you know what? Honestly no, because I'll tell you why. So I'm at a point now where I have been freelancing for a period of time, and I've obviously been out of university for a period of time, and I've had a scope of what it is in both, where it's freelance and full-time. And I'm at that point now when I try not to obviously overthink things way too much. And when there is space or time to then do these projects... I mean I say that, and I just recently got engaged, so obviously now, wedding planning too. So there's a lot of things happening in terms of my hemisphere, but yeah, I'm finding the balance a lot more now than I did when I first started freelancing out of university. And I think it comes with age, to be fair. So you kind of know what's, what, what needs to be prioritized.

Steve Folland: Yeah. The balance. So you feel like your work/life balance... Because that's the thing when you're working full time and then you're working on these projects and then you're volunteering on that-

Kieron Lewis: You've gotta make switch off. Isn't there a switch off time, because it's so easy to just get consumed by okay, right. All these people are coming to me, right. It's pay. So just, just do it. But then you think, okay money's cool but actually you got to think of your own wellbeing. You know, your livelihood. Are you having a social life? All these elements which makes you a human being. And to be truthfully honest, there was a weird glitch, in a period of my life where I was doing so much work. I was almost like, you know, just locked off from the outside world just tucked away. Netflix, laptops, going crazy. And then I realized, okay K, there does need to be a bit of balance towards this. And you know, just again, meeting Olga, she has the balance so perfectly well. I'm kind of learning off Olga, even though we've known each other for so many years, I'm still learning a lot from her as well.

Steve Folland: Oh that's cool. What would you say has been the biggest challenge of being freelance?

Kieron Lewis: Biggest challenge? Biggest challenge. I mean, I want to say to the financial side of things is obviously quite... Because in a way it's almost... So, for anyone here who does watch it, so I watched the apprentice, right? And again, I'm totally going off piece, but there's a reason why. So the idea of kind of, you know, being good at negotiating and the idea of... I always find a funny period whenever you get a new client because okay, they know what I can do, I know what they do. We've sort of ticked off all the bits that we need to do. Now let's talk about the, you know, the crux of it, pay. And you find yourself with certain clients, not all, but you find with some certain clients, a bit of a battle because obviously they've got a budget and obviously... Which is totally fine. We can work around that.

Kieron Lewis: But they need to understand within that budget you're going to get a certain type of... Well, you know, as much work as you're going to get. Some kind of clients want the world for a very small budget and then you kind of have to, you know, be more thick skinned and say, right, is it worth really my time just being totally real about it? Because there's no point of doing all this work if it's not really reflecting how much I should be paid, if that makes sense? So that's probably one difficulty that I think we've kind of, you know, found a way through it now. But you always find... You never know which client you're going to get, and you never know their perspective and what they're going to go over because you get some people who are just stone cold Robonaut to not budging. We're like cool, well neither are we. And then actually someone kind of eventually gives up.

Steve Folland: How do you find... how do you say that to them though? Like when they're saying, Oh, we've only got this amount of money?

Kieron Lewis: Do you know what? There is, again, with myself and Olga how we work-

Steve Folland: Is it good cop, bad cop?

Kieron Lewis: A little bit. We don't kind of beat around the bush in a sense. But to an extent. But I think it's more just being honest and being transparent and there's no facade about it. It's, you know, were you going to say things that our fair, and we're not going to try and charge the world if it's actually not, you know, in terms of the scope of the work. And I think people will know if you're trying to, you know, bully bee them. You know what I mean? Bullshit, if I can say that. Can I say that?

Steve Folland: You can say that, it's fine.

Kieron Lewis: Oh, great. I'll be doing this all the time. Yeah, basically we'll know if you can, you know, believe bullshit. We do that a lot now, and I think that's kind of me as a person. That's how I like to work. You know, I'm not going to try and pretend if I don't know the answer, I'm not going to try and, you know... Otherwise I look like an idiot. So yeah, it's kind of you get what you get when you meet myself and Olga, and our initial stance.

Steve Folland: Cool. By the way, as ever, with all of our guests, if you check out beingfreelance.com, there's links through so that you can check out the work, like that project with the homeless that you did. It's so cool. And I know you've brought some of it along as well. And now I always do this thing where I'll ask for three facts about yourself to make two true, one a lie, and let me figure out the lie. I've got some help to help me figure out the lie tonight. And one of them is wearing lie detecting glasses. Thank you for wearing those.

Kieron Lewis: I see the flashing red light flashing in the corner.

Steve Folland: So what have you got first?

Kieron Lewis: I forgot to write this down. So it's in no particular order, right? So first one-

Steve Folland: No, do the true one first.

Kieron Lewis: Crikey, right? No particular order. So in 2014 I had the opportunity to pitch a business idea to Margaret Mountford from BBCs Apprentice. She's actually a big softie and don't believe what you see on a TV. Next one. I'm not going to read from that. I know what it is. So I auditioned for a, I auditioned for-

Steve Folland: Hang on. Did you just read the first one? Cause it was a lie.

Kieron Lewis: Okay. You say that, but feel free. You will see, I'm curious to know who funds the line, who doesn't. Actually, there's a prize in there for you. So second one was I auditioned for a... I don't know if you guys know, Take Me Out on ITV?

Steve Folland: Yeah.

Kieron Lewis: And I got onto the show, and on the morning of the actual recording, I had the old like nerves-

Steve Folland: And you bombed it?

Kieron Lewis: I bombed it, basically.

Steve Folland: Okay, and your third fact?

Kieron Lewis: The third one - hang on I might have to look at it - ah, I know what it is, great. All right. So again, you're thinking that, maybe this is actually a game, you know? So my fiance, her cousins are basically... He's a famous footballer. He plays for international for Spain and he also plays for Arsenal. And off the bat of that, because of that's happening, I have done some freelance work for Arsenal.

Steve Folland: Okay.

Kieron Lewis: It might seem like one's a lot. One is obviously a lie, but now you will see which one.

Steve Folland: I could ask you the name of the footballer and I still wouldn't know.

Kieron Lewis: If you're an Arsenal fan?

Steve Folland: What's the name of it? Can I say it?

Kieron Lewis: It's Denis Suarez, for anyone who knows Arsenal...

Steve Folland: I know Dennis Wise. Okay. What was your song, if you were that close to going on Take Me Out, What was the song that you chose to go down the 'Love Lift' in.

Kieron Lewis: That's going to reflect so much about who I am now, isn't it? It was Gorgon city. It was the Archie. No, you say that. No, no. In the crowd you say that, but when I went for the... Oh God, I'm saying what it is now. Shit.

Steve Folland: And so you had your dance moves?

Kieron Lewis: Had the dance moves, 40 auditioned, yeah.

Steve Folland: Yeah, We've actually got that song lined up. We hadn't told you, with the DJ over there. What was... You know that bit where they have to show off a talent in quotation marks? What was your talent?

Kieron Lewis: Right, so I did obviously an audition as well. Yoyo, I'm really good at Yoyo. I know how retro, how bloody hipster that sounds, but I've got a weird selection of like Yoyos at home so I can do like some good tricks.

Steve Folland: What's your best trick on the area?

Kieron Lewis: Wow.

Steve Folland: What were you hoping was going to impress the ladies?

Kieron Lewis: Impress the ladies?

Steve Folland: That's the aim of the game, I don't know if you've watched it?

Kieron Lewis: The rock the cradle one, actually.

Steve Folland: Oh, rock the cradle?

Kieron Lewis: Walk the dog, all those ones.

Steve Folland: Yeah. Okay, I believe you. Margaret Mountford, so what did you do to Margaret?

Kieron Lewis: So, what did I do to Margaret?

Steve Folland: Did you show her the Yoyo trick?

Kieron Lewis: So I had to pitch an idea. So this was two years ago, had to pitch an idea, a business idea and it was part of... It was young. It's called a young light bulb moment. And it was a competition, and it was in Croydon, and it was the idea we had to go there, and pitch an idea for two panel of judges. Bearing in mind it wasn't Margaret straight away. And for those who got shortlisted, we had an opportunity to pitch it to Margaret Mountford, who is a lovely lady.

Steve Folland: What was your pitch idea?

Kieron Lewis: So at the time I did some more volunteer work and it was a board about the community. So it was the idea of trying to bring people who are doing different things within the areas together, free creativity.

Steve Folland: And the third one was about arsenal? So I don't even know what to ask.

Kieron Lewis: So basically, I helped towards that with the new branding kit they've got.

Steve Folland: Yeah, I really like that.

Kieron Lewis: Well, it was in collaboration.

Steve Folland: You didn't design their kit. You're telling me you helped design the Arsenal kit?

Kieron Lewis: I'll go into it now. Right? You're ready for it? Are you ready for it?

Steve Folland: You sure you don't want to read it?

Kieron Lewis: Right.

Steve Folland: So if you think it was Margaret where he gave us a detail, cheer now. If you think it was the brilliant Take Me Out one, clap now. Okay. If you think it was the Arsenal one that was Billy bullshit or whatever you came up with earlier. Cheer now.

Kieron Lewis: Are you sure? Brilliant.

Steve Folland: Well it sounds like they think the last one is low. Is that the lie?

Kieron Lewis: It's a bit of truth but mainly lie, yeah.

Steve Folland: You've never designed for Arsenal?

Kieron Lewis: No, no I haven't.

Steve Folland: And I'm still disappointed you didn't go and Take Me Out because I genuinely-

Kieron Lewis: Very close though. Like I think it was more of a case of when I talk, because obviously I don't know if anyone's seen it. You've probably seen it the show, right?

Steve Folland: Of course. Well, some of us have got kids so we don't go out. So we do watch that.

Kieron Lewis: So they obviously go back and they do a recording with your family and so I obviously had to let mom know. And Mom thought, what the hell are you doing? And obviously a lot of my guy mates were like you know, yeah, do it. It'll be a laugh. You know why not? And my gal mates were like, just remember this will be on YouTube. So if you make a fool of yourself, if you do Yoyo tricks and hits you in the eye or whatever, there's going to be bloody retakes of this shit all the time. So yeah, I just literally the morning of it, I thought I'm not doing this, but I was, yeah, I don't regret it because obviously I'm married now, so yeah.

Steve Folland: Well, not quite yet.

Kieron Lewis: Or engaged.

Steve Folland: You know.

Kieron Lewis: She has this podcast-

Steve Folland: She might mix with a lot of footballers, so I don't want to get your hopes up.

Kieron Lewis: Smooth.

Steve Folland: No, okay. Now if you could tell your younger self one thing about being freelance, what would that be?

Kieron Lewis: Don't stress out too much. Don't stress out too much. And I think it's the idea of, it's a bit cliche, but the idea of not being afraid to make mistakes. I remember when I first graduated thinking obviously I had my full-time job, so that was pretty much secured. But I was so eager and just wanting to get as many clients and do loads of different things. And obviously in that process you make mistakes and you can be quite hard on yourself. And looking back now, you know, nothing's really changed. Obviously, you know, more skilled and more advanced and whatever. But yeah, you're literally where you are now. So don't take it too seriously in that regards because you're forever learning, right? And I think that is probably what I'd tell myself.

Steve Folland: Cool. Thank you so much for chatting to us tonight. Please give it up for Kieron Lewis.