What is it you really want to do? - Children's Picture Book Author and Illustrator Maddie Frost
Photography by Kara Gingras.
When she was burnt out from teaching and stuck in a funk, Maddie’s husband asked her “What is it you really want to do?”
Suddenly it became clear - Maddie realised she wanted to create picture books for children. She phoned her boss that night to give notice and, within a month, she had an agent.
Maddie hit the ground running from there, taking on small projects and saying yes to everything that landed in her inbox. Over time, she was able to build up her portfolio and develop her own style. Now, as well as illustrating books for others, Maddie’s created 4 of her own.
She chats to Steve about how she made it happen, how she balances her time, promotes her work and makes space in her life for hobbies. And maybe even goats.
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TRANSCRIPT OF THE BEING FREELANCE PODCAST WITH CHILDREN’S PICTURE BOOK AUTHOR AND ILLUSTRATOR MADDIE FROST AND STEVE FOLLAND
Steve Folland: For episode 199, hey Maddie!
Maddie Frost: Yay! Hello.
Steve Folland: Your illustrations have brightened up my twitter feed for so long.
Maddie Frost: Oh, they're just for you. I just, that's all it's for.
Steve Folland: Yeah. I'm excited to find out how you got there though. So how did you get started being freelance?
Maddie Frost: Well, let's see. So I grew up just like loving cartoons and animated movies and Europe in the 90s so like the content for like cartoons on Nickelodeon were just like endless and, and so I think I had a love for, for characters and, and art at a young age. I didn't really understand what that meant. I just knew that I liked drawing and I liked. There's something about characters that really excited me. Flash forward a bunch of years I went to art school in Boston. I studied animation, so I got to really learn even more about characters and storytelling; and I learned how long animation actually takes.
Maddie Frost: And so, yeah. So after I graduated college, I didn't really know what I should do, and I think in my head I thought. Oh, I can just like, you know, as soon as I graduate I can just like walk over to like Disney and be like, Hey, I'm done with college, please hire me. But it's really, I just, I don't think I was prepared for how complicated and hard that whole industry was. And it's so competitive and, and so I just did. I was, I wasn't sure. So I moved back home and I ended up teaching art at some local, like art centres. I really liked working with kids and so I really did think that like teaching was my calling and it was my path because I just started to fall in love with it. I was good at it too and I really liked it and I have the personality for working with kids and, and so I think that that's just sort of what I thought I was always going to be doing.
Maddie Frost: But I still, I still was making art, you know, on the side for fun as a, as a hobby. Again, flash forward, life happens and then I married or I was engaged at the time and I was working at a school and I'll never forget my husband and I. I was just like, I don't know, I think I was just sort of like feeling a little burnt out with teaching and I was sort of in like a funk and my husband were eating dinner and, and you know, he's asking me like, you know, you don't seem super enthused lately about work. And so he's like, he asked me this million-dollar question and it's so simple and it, and I'll never forget. And he just said, well, what is it you really want to be doing? And at a matter of factly, I just replied, I want to just be making picture books.
Maddie Frost: And I had always loved books and whenever I would go into bookstores, I would always just like, just linger in the children's book section and just like Swoon over all of the amazing artists. And it's such a, an amazing way to tell stories. And so I, I didn't know that I had that like dream kind of like varied sort of in me. It was like the dust had covered it somehow with life and, and so it all just became really clear my whole life kind of like came into perspective that night for dinner. And so he was like, okay well what are we going to do about that? And so we like, started to hash things out. We and then me like, you know, we got more wine.
Maddie Frost: It's hard to say as you do when you try it, you're at a crossroads in your life. I'm trying to figure things out. And so I, yeah, and the rest of it kind of it, it's going to sound really weird when I say it, but it all happened just like this. So that night I called my boss and I, I said I'm not coming back cause it was the summer. And so I was working at the summer camp at the school provides during the summertime and I just said like, I'm, I'm not coming back in the fall, but I'll finish the rest of the summer and I quit.
Maddie Frost: So I, I quit my teaching job and that was really scary. And I said, okay, well I'm going to give myself like X amount of time to, to try and check all the boxes to try and get on this picture bookmaking path. And I had no idea what I was supposed to be. I didn't know what that looked like. I took a, you want me to stop it? You start going goes go. Oh God, yeah.
Steve Folland: What is you two hadn't have been sitting down talking, but instead, I don't know, watching survivor on TV or Grey's anatomy and were too busy going, Oh, what about magazines? And instead of worrying about yourselves, what a question he asked you.
Maddie Frost: It is, I know and I honestly say like, and he will deny this, but I really don't know if I would be where I am right now if he hadn't asked me that question. And it's such a powerful question and, and I ask it and I like say it all the time, not to people who are in similar situations, like what is it you really want to do? And it's very surreal. We still go back and we talk about that night how like, you know, it was just everything.
Steve Folland: Aww you guys. I want to hug you both.
Maddie Frost: Yeah, I know.
Steve Folland: Okay. So you've got all that wine you're phoned up, you quit your job.
Maddie Frost: I quit my job. I know, and I woke up the next morning like what the heck did I just? Oh my gosh, okay, we're doing this.
Steve Folland: But at this point obviously you, you enjoy illustrating but you've never drawn a picture book as part of your hobby. Right. And you don't, I mean were you sharing illustrations on, I don't know, on Instagram and calling yourself an illustrator or like you know? Where were you in that respect?
Maddie Frost: Yeah, I was like making like, you know, fun, like kind of like how I sometimes will share on Twitter. Like I'll just make like little spot art. Like little fun characters and I would, I was on Twitter and I was sharing stuff and I was starting to connect and follow people that I thought like really interesting artists of all kinds and lots of picture book people. So I had the continued tiny like I guess you could call it a portfolio. I had a folder full of work that I made on the side for fun. So I had this like small body of work and I was like, okay, well I knew that I needed an agent, the magical a word. I started doing some research and then this is weird, but I was following an amazing picture book, artist named Julia Patton and I really was gravitated to her work and I just like, I don't know.
Maddie Frost: Do you know when like you don't know somebody but you just like feel a kindredness that draws you to them? Whether it be like there art, are there the funny things that they say and can it be on social media? It could just be a stranger that you're just like, I just, I don't know. It was a weird gut thing that I just felt this connection and I didn't, I had no idea who she was, but I just really liked her and I liked her proposed and her art. And so I reached out to her on Twitter and I sent her a message and I just said, Hey, like I'm looking to possibly maybe get representation with the same agent. It was bright group, she was a bright at the time and I'm still upright, but I reached out and she kind of like took me under her wing and was like, you know, here's what you need to do and kind of explain sort of the process.
Maddie Frost: And so I did all those things and I shortly after heard back and I got representation and so everything else is just like a whirlwind. So it really happened. And for me I was just the lucky, I know it's not like this for a lot of people, but it was just like Bing, bang, boom. I quit my job, reached out to try and get an agent. I got an agent and then I just hit the ground running and I haven't stopped working for four years. Yeah, I know. And I'm not even exaggerating. Like I wish it sounds really weird coming out of my mouth. Like, Oh, I just woke up one morning and got an eight. But like, I don't know, I think it was just like I was always meant to be on this path and it was just like the universe just took me and propelled me forward. I just had to make the choice.
Steve Folland: How long was it between like opening that bottle of wine and opening an envelope saying that you've got an agent? How long was that?
Maddie Frost: Oh man, let me try to remember. It was probably like less than a month.
Steve Folland: Wow. But I mean getting an agent is one thing, but then they've got to get you work and then I don't know how it works. You know it's going to be a while till you get paid. So. So how does it look for you when you started out?
Maddie Frost: Oh, I had no idea. I had no idea what had to make up. I had no idea the process took a while to get my first project. It may be, it took like maybe a two one to three months to actually get first paying project and it was a small project as it should be because I had never done this before and I'm glad I kind of like worked my way to doing bigger projects and it was just like some smaller projects and I was, I told myself that like no matter what came in, I would just say yes. And I think that's so important to just, I really wanted to do this. And then I didn't want to have any other side like hustles. I just wanted to make books. I didn't want to have to do another job. And yeah, my whole focus was to just try and make a living out of this.
Maddie Frost: So I said yes to absolutely everything that came into my inbox. And it was some things that were really out of my comfort zone, but I did them anyway. And just kind of like making it up as I went along and, and just trying to do what I thought was, I don't know, like what they wanted and so yeah, so lots of smaller projects and you know, my husband and I talked like, okay, well we'll, we'll give it like X amount of time if it's not going to, if it's not kind of like working out or you're not happy or we'll just figure out another plan. And I agreed, but I just really wanted this to happen. So that was even more of like fuel to just be like, all right, I'm just going to keep on. Just keep on taking anything that comes in because we're going to make this happen and it has to, it has to work.
Steve Folland: And so all of your work was coming by the agency? Was it all books or when you say smaller projects, was it no products, what kind of things?
Maddie Frost: I did a couple holiday cards, couple holiday card designs, but they're mostly like some smaller like educational books. Mmm. Some like religiousy kind of books. Just stuff that I had no idea what I was doing. But the great thing about that is I was, I was just like learning as I go and I was really able to hone my and like develop my own style and learn what I didn't like doing what I liked doing. And I think that, you know, and with every project I learned about myself and I learned about. Yeah, I grew as an artist with each project and I kind of tried not to overthink things and get attached to certain things or certain projects and just kind of roll with it and see where I took me in and here I am. Yeah.
Steve Folland: And how were you sort of like managing your time?
Maddie Frost: Yeah. Oh man, that's really hard. I still am struggling with time management. So in the beginning when I was first doing this, they were, you know, we have deadlines as, as artists and I, I would work like through the night cause I just was so intent on like making sure everything was perfect and done, you know, right on time and that's really great. But I wasn't taking care of myself and I saw my husband would be getting up in the morning and I would be like just going to bed. And that really started to take a toll and I got really burnt out really quickly and it was, I had to check in with myself and I had to say, okay, Oh well I'm going to be doing this, you know, for the long haul. I really have to, I have to map out, you know, some time for self-care.
Maddie Frost: And anyway, it's taken me a long time to figure out time management. But every year I think I refine sort of what works for me just by like trial and error, you know, and setting reasonable goals because it's really easy to just be like, I'm going to get, you know, five illustration pages done today. And then I only, you know, it's like, then I feel terrible for not even getting halfway through one and it's like six o'clock my husbands home and yeah. So I just, I try to block off time, reasonable time. I figured out when I work best and it's usually in the morning, so if I just kind of like block off my time and I say I'm going to work, you know, on X for from nine to like noon, take a break and then kind of finish up or just basically set reasonable goals and pick a time that I stopped working to try and separate working from relaxing because working from home is really hard. Anyway so I don't know if I answered your question. I'm just talking a lot. Sorry.
Maddie Frost: I mean anytime I get excited I'm also talking to them also in my closet right now. How's my sound by the way? I really am. I really am. I know. So I'm just like amongst my clothes in the closet, like rambling about my life on the floor.
Steve Folland: The sound is brilliant.
Maddie Frost: I listen to podcasts. I know that sounds important.
Steve Folland: I'm in an echo-y cowork space, you know, it doesn't sound as good as when I'm at home. It's not.
Maddie Frost: It's okay.
Steve Folland: But when you're working from home, do you have your own space?
Maddie Frost: I do. I do have a room and it's really nice having a space that I can just like leave and close the door if I need to or go in and close the door if I need to. But it wasn't always that way. The first year that I did this, we were living in like a tiny matchbox like apartment and it was probably the size of your living room. It was the test of our marriage, the tests that we could be married. And it was just, I had a corner and I was really just grateful for just being able to just do it. So I, I would have worked on the floor or wherever. But yeah, so I do have a room and it does help a little bit, but it still feels like when I'm home and I'm still struggling with this, I have a hard time when I can just relax and when I should be working.
Maddie Frost: And so this is weird, but sometimes I will like schedule, I'll go to like, like a yoga class. I'm like, I'll do something at night where I have to like leave the house. So like I'll work and then like maybe up until five o'clock and then I'll go to like a yoga class or I'll go and grab like a couple of groceries or I'll get in my car and leave the house. And then I purposely just come back home and like walk in the door to feel like I'm done. Yeah, it actually really works. It's, it's awesome. And then I feel like, Oh, like I am home now
Steve Folland: And you don't let yourself sneak back in that's it.
Maddie Frost: I don't, I don't, I'm trying to practice more self-control and not, you know, go back into my workspace and tinker with things I like. I think we're always working. So we really, in our heads, you know, we're always like trying to figure out problems or are working on an idea or, and that's always going. So even when we're not actually physically at our workspace, we're still, we're still always kind of working, but it's more of just the mindset that like I can just be on the couch and relax and I can, and that's okay. I don't have to feel guilty for relaxing.
Steve Folland: And so when you started out, you were saying yes to everything, has that changed over time?
Maddie Frost: Yeah, yeah. And that's the result of a lot of hard work. And I've gotten myself to a place where I feel, you know, financially stable enough to be able to say and like authentically, like I feel like I've been able to figure out who I am and I'm still learning. I'm still figuring out and I grow like changes every year. But I think through all these projects I've been able to sort of see myself a little clearer and hear my own voice a little clearer, especially as a storyteller and as a writer. So I feel like now I know what feels a little more authentic to my picture book path. And it could be just the, no, this doesn't fit into my schedule and I don't have, if I could clone myself, I could probably take the job, but I don't, I, there's only one of me so I. There's not enough time and sometimes it's just a matter of feeling like it's just not the right project for me, you know?
Steve Folland: Hmm. Obviously you described yourself as an author, illustrator, so at some point, you started writing your own stuff rather than just illustrating for other people.
Maddie Frost: Yeah. And I, and I think that's always where I knew I was headed because I wanted to sort of make the art that I wanted to make and the characters I wanted to make. And I just believed that I could do it. And I feel like if other people are writing books and I can write books can't be that hard. It's actually really, it's really hard. But
Steve Folland: Wait were you doing that like in your own time, even though all of the time is your own time? Was it like a
Maddie Frost: I just think I just started to play. I started to play and started to write down different stories and I just, I just kept, I just kept writing stories and they were like really not there. I mean like, I don't want to say bad because they were just like, I don't know, they were just not strong enough or maybe I needed to just, I just needed more practice. And so I just kept writing and eventually, I had some, you know, a few story finished, you know, manuscripts and I kind of sent them, you know, the agent helped me take care of them and we kind of started to put them out into the world and see what came back.
Maddie Frost: And I have, I've just kept doing that and my stories get rejected all the time. And some things work at, some things don't, but that doesn't stop me from writing. And I, I really do just, I write for the, I create, just for the love of creating stories. A goal is not to just be published, it's just, I just really genuinely love writing stories. And so the more I do it, I feel like anyway, I just, I just keep creating.
Steve Folland: So in this four year journey, when did you get your first book published as your own book?
Maddie Frost: That's a great question. I think it was, I want to say maybe 2000 so I started in 2013 I think it was 2014 maybe. And that was once upon a Z.
Steve Folland: Oh, that must've felt so cool to finally have your own.
Maddie Frost: I know it was, it was really cool. A very surreal.
Steve Folland: And do you have to go out and do like, I don't know, events or things like that or do you stick to your house?
Maddie Frost: I do. Well, so like again going back into like time management, like what is worth, I've learned this the hard way. What is worth my time? What is worth things that take me away from working? And so yeah, like of course I will do, you know, I think being out and reading and connecting to local bookstores and, and educators and librarians. And so that to me is really, I love that. And getting back into the classroom and sharing my work and sharing my, my stories and my books and I feel like that's a huge part of, of my job is to connect to my audience. I do make time for that, but not to the point where I feel like I'm overloaded and I'm exhausted. So I just tried to like balance out, you know, how much time I, I actually am out there kind of sharing and promoting versus how much time I'm actually, you know, back home and working.
Maddie Frost: But I love that part about my job is just kind of when it all comes full circle and you're like, Oh like this is what I'm doing, this is what all of the, the blood, sweat, and tears is for. You know, you see kids and they're reading your book and it's just, it's unbelievable. It really is.
Steve Folland: But I love that you, you still are like wow, I can't at some point I have to get back and draw stuff but also I have to look after myself.
Maddie Frost: Yeah. And marketing. I feel like I, in the beginning I was like, well, I don't know like how to like promote myself and I really don't, like I am not a fan of social media and I know how important it is, especially to entrepreneurs and freelancers and just bringing people closer together I think. And that's great. But I, I think for me as an artist, something about it like sucks the life out of, out of life. So I try to like share and I try to share my personality and my work and, and I'm, I love connecting to other artists and educators and stuff like that, but I try to just, again, like limit myself to how much time I'm actually on there. My marketing strategy is to just keep working. And so I really believe that I just, if I just stay focused, the clients and the jobs will follow.
Maddie Frost: I really believe that. I think if I just do what I love and I enjoy the process and I just keep going and I try not to focus too much on like a, like I don't know what trends are or what other people are doing or what other people are publishing or, and I'm so supportive of everyone's work and I love everything. I love everybody. I love all my friends and I love, but I really don't. So I do this thing where I like, I will, I won't scroll on social media. I'll just like whatever pops up into like my home. Like when I'm only on Twitter by the way. So FYI, that's all I can handle. But I just like, I set myself a time to go on, which is like right in the morning.
Maddie Frost: Like in the morning, Great, I go on. Maybe I'll share something. Maybe I won't if it's not, if nothing's popping up, my, my soul and yeah, I'll just like, I won't say I feel like scrolling is dangerous because then you go into like the spiral of like, Oh my God, this person is just has a new book coming out this person. Like is having a productive day, like people show that. I'm like, Oh God, I'm not, I feel terrible about myself. I'm going to go back into my closet and cry.
Steve Folland: Wow, you, you must be one of the few people in the world who manages not to scroll. You realize that right now there is somebody trying to understand the glitch in the system, which has prevented one person just outside Boston from scrolling in Twitter. They're like, I don't understand. We've put all of these resources into making this as addictive as possible and she just won't do it!
Maddie Frost: She's just not scrolling! I know. I know.
Steve Folland: What if it's infectious and other people stop scrolling too?
Maddie Frost: I know they're going to come after me and be like, all right, this girl. Anyway. I just, yeah. I think just that this falls along the lines of like again, like time management and making sure that you're like my like making sure my focus is constantly being like reigned in because working from home and being a freelancer like we just have like, it's just so hard to just, sometimes just to focus, you know the house...If the house is a mess or like there's dirty dishes like I, that's a whole nother thing where I'm like I can't start working unless the house is like the house is clean. Like my space of work has to be like all you know in order before I even begin my day. So it's just, yeah.
Steve Folland: So, sorry? You have to tidy everything before you can start your day?
Maddie Frost: I do. I really, I do.
Steve Folland: So even though you have a room that you can go lock yourself in.
Maddie Frost: I know it doesn't matter. It's the fact that it's the fact that I know what's outside of the room.
Steve Folland: I'm impressed.
Maddie Frost: Well, sometimes I just need to relax though. Like I said, I do.
Steve Folland: You have a dog though right?
Maddie Frost: I do have a dog yeah.
Steve Folland: I only saw that because you, you put it on Twitter, you working on the floor with your dog.
Maddie Frost: Yeah. He's always there. Yeah. He keeps me company. He makes the job a little less lonely. Yeah. I would like all of the animals. Maybe a goat. I feel like, yeah. Then it could do goat yoga. I could just, you know, I heard that very soothing during the goat yoga
Steve Folland: Is goat yoga a thing?
Maddie Frost: It is. I'm telling you, there's like, I'm a very big yoga person, but there's all this.
Steve Folland: Is this because goats love to climb on stuff. So you will get in a yoga pose and the instinct is to jump on top of you?
Maddie Frost: Yeah and apparently it's very grounding.
Maddie Frost: Yeah. But they have like cat yoga, those all, I mean like there's basically like any
Steve Folland: Maddie, if you ever get a goat and you do yoga with it, please film it. See I need to see just how soothing it really is. So you're doing acting lessons?
Maddie Frost: I am. So as part of to try and balance my life, I'm trying to do some things that get me out of the house and that just are fun and let me play and kind of like contribute in a weird way. It's like to my art making and my writing and yeah. So I've been taking some acting and improv classes and it is so, it's so fun. Yeah. Yeah.
Steve Folland: That whole thing of getting out of having a hobby.
Maddie Frost: Yeah. And like, it's so weird because like once your hobby becomes your profession, it's kind of like there's sort of like a sad sadness of like, well what do I do for fun, you know? Yeah. So it's kind of, and this is taking me, I'm still kind of learning how to like do more of this in my life and to just like play in, you know, and get myself away from my desk to, to keep the creative fuel going. So yeah, I've been doing that. And also I'm in yoga teacher training. I'm almost done actually. Yeah. I don't know if I'll teach, but I've always wanted to be certified so once I get those goats, man it's all going to happen.
Steve Folland: You could become like some sort of online goat drawing superstar.
Maddie Frost: Yeah. That's where I'm headed.
Steve Folland: It's very niche. I like it.
Maddie Frost: It is, Goat Girl. That's going to be me GG. Yeah. Hashtag Goat Girl.
Steve Folland: If you could tell your younger self one thing about being freelance, what would that be?
Maddie Frost: I would tell myself that it's not going to be easy and it's going to be really hard. A lot of it won't make any sense. I would tell myself that I'm going to question if I'm doing enough or if I am enough, if it's all enough, and I would tell myself that it's more than enough and that I am, I am going to do it and yeah, that I'm here to tell my younger self little Maddie that you'll be more than enough.
Steve Folland: Maddie, it's been so nice.
Maddie Frost: Thank you so much. This is so exciting. It was my first podcast. My dreams have been made in the closet. It's been amazing. Thank you so much.