About this podcast episode…

GRAPHIC DESIGNER ANGELA LYONS

Angela shares her 12-year journey as a freelance graphic designer. And her approach to business has dramatically evolved so there’s plenty to share.

Initially focusing mostly on magazine design work and raising her young family, the past four years have seen her embrace networking, community building, and new opportunities through social media and in-person events.

Angela discusses how joining communities like Being Freelance, Digital Women (where she won Graphic Designer of the Year) and working on Freelancer Magazine as art director opened new doors and helped her overcome initial reluctance to put herself out there. She emphasizes how word-of-mouth referrals have consistently been her main source of work.

And now? There’s no stopping her. She’s launching her own podcast called "Creatives Like Us" featuring people of colour in creative industries, and organising an event of the same name. She’s being mentored and mentoring others - Angela shares insights about the value of business programs like Santander's Women in Business, which helped her improve crucial aspects like invoicing and contracts.

Ange says she loves talking to people. And that’s the essence of what’s brought her work throughout. This time she’s talking to us… Enjoy!

Read a full transcript & get Links in the tabs.

More from ANGELA LYONS

Lyons Creative website
Angela on Instagram
Freelancer Magazine
Creatives Like Us Podcast

More from Steve Folland

Steve on Instagram
Steve’s freelance podcast and video editor site
Steve on LinkedIn
Being Freelance Community
Steve’s regular emails for freelancers
Steve’s course for new freelancers
The Doing It For The Kids podcast

Transcript of the Being Freelance podcast with Steve Folland and graphic designer Angela Lyons

Steve Folland: As ever, how about we get started hearing how you got started being freelance?

Angela Lyons: How I started freelance, well I was in a publishing company for about 11 years and I'd had my two children by then. And then towards the end of my time at that company, I thought, should I be here for, you know, another 11 years or should I start looking for something else?

And just as I started looking for something else, I got headhunted by a software company and this company said you can work for us one day from home and the job's only four days a week. And I was like, this is the dream job. No one ever used to work from home. Like this was like 12 years ago.

So they gave me this job, what happened was I absolutely hated it. It was just awful, it wasn't creative and they just got me doing email templates, and I actually broke... it was horrible, I actually broke out in hives because I started getting stressed out because I'd left the job that I'd been in for 11 years.

And then I just thought, you know what, I've gotta go freelance. I've hired freelancers before. I'm sure that it'd be okay if I go freelance. I know people. Then I was like, right, I'm going to do it. So I just literally handed in my notice and I set up a limited company with my name and that was it.

Steve Folland: You say you just set up a company and off you went, but how did you get those first freelance clients?

Angela Lyons: So funny enough, my old company. They knew that I was freelance, even though I was like, I don't want to work for you anymore. I ended up going back there and that was designing magazines and reports and working on companies branding. And yeah, they contacted me and said, would you like to work for us?

I did for a bit and then I thought, actually, I don't want to anymore. So I just pretty much left them and then started contacting recruiters. Recruiters are okay, but I think I only got one job ever since I've been freelancing out of a recruiter, I think. No, maybe about two. But the others, all my other work has been word of mouth.

So that's how I started getting jobs in, was word of mouth.

Steve Folland: So even right from the beginning, word of mouth, so was this people that you had met through your career up until that point? Or locally, or?

Angela Lyons: So there's a bit of both. When I first started doing it, there was people that I'd worked with and they'd left companies and they'd gone to other companies and then they needed a graphic designer to work on their marketing materials or whatnot, whatever they needed, magazines. And then I started getting work from them.

Another way I got work was working with printers. So when I was in the contract publishers, I used to go to a lot of their.. When they used to invite you to afternoon teas and all that sort of like promo stuff they used to do, like get the companies on board and talk to the art directors and say, Oh, come to afternoon tea or to lunches with us and Christmas do's.

And so I had a really good relationship with a lot of printers and one of my, actually still one of my biggest jobs today... actually two of them come from a printer or connection from a printer that recommended me to somebody else.

Steve Folland: So how did it evolve over those 12 years? Has it changed a lot? As in to how you find work?

Angela Lyons: Yeah, I'd say about 80 percent of my work now is still referrals and word of mouth and I suppose retainers, companies that have come back to me and said, can you work on this another month? Can you work on this another month? I've got one client that I've still been working for for the last nine years and that's just been rolling and still going.

I'd say most of it has been just referrals and talking to other people about what I do. And then I'd say more so recently it's been social media and networking.

Steve Folland: What sort of thing on social media did you find?

Angela Lyons: Do you know what? It's really weird because when I first started, I hated it and I told my kids, don't go on social media, it's evil. But I think more so talking to different communities on social media and then putting myself out there talking a little bit about what I do, but mostly talking about what I do in my personal life and so like cycling and talking to people.

So if I've met them at a networking event, and I like also sharing what other people do. So I kind of like, you know, picking other people up. So social media wise, I've been told I need to post more about what I do and my work. But I always end up talking about other stuff because it's kind of hard putting yourself out there, but I'm getting better at loads better at it.

Especially after so many years of freelancing, if you don't tell people what you do, how are they going to know what you do?

Steve Folland: Right, but in person networking as well?

Angela Lyons: Yeah, I love chatting to people, which is really funny because I used to be quite shy as a kid. But I love going to networking events. I've joined the digital women community. It was brilliant. I still, I'm still part of the community. I won graphic designer of the year a few years ago, which was brilliant.

And that kind of, not open doors, but it got me noticed, I'd say, and people started inviting me to other networking events or to come on their podcasts or, you know, put yourself out there a bit more. So when I say networking, it's not just, in person networking. It's also online. And join in various groups.

Obviously your community, Steve, I love the Being Freelance community. And I've met lots of friends through that. And I'd say that's networking, but it's more so friendship networking for me. But I know that loads of people have got work off that. Actually, funnily enough, yesterday I got an email from somebody asking for a graphic designer.

And I couldn't do it, so I've passed it on to two other graphic designers in our community. Because I thought, oh, I know they do that. So, yeah. That kind of networking is really great for work wise and friendship wise.

Steve Folland: But how often would you say you go to stuff in person?

Angela Lyons: Well, I live in London, so there's something every day if I wanted to, but I can't do that. I mean, even yesterday, there was an event for Adobe and it looked really great. And I just thought, I cannot, I cannot do this. It's just too much. So I'm already going to a coworking event tomorrow where I'm speaking with the Cowork Crew Penni and Jo Pickering.

So how often do I do it? I'd say about two a month if I can . I've done local networking events. I live in Walhamstow, and there's a great networking event called the Hive. And they actually specialize in creatives and they have networking events. Do you know what? It's so funny because I joined that group about two years ago. And I had worked through them about, what was it, about summertime? They recommended me to a scientist who needed some branding done. And yeah, she came through the Hive event, and that was two years ago.

So even though you go to these networking events, you don't know when that work might come through, but you've got to kind of build on that. You've got to kind of keep going and keep plugging at it. I'd say also, Freelancer Magazine has been great for networking. We have our in person events and we also have a lot of co working online.

And yeah, that's been great at networking. And again, passing on information of other freelancers, you know, and what they do. And just, it's really weird. When I first started, I think a lot of designers thought, I've got to keep all the jobs myself, I can't give any of the jobs away. It's not about that.

For me anyway, it's more so collaboration. And if I can't do it, I will 100 percent give it away to somebody else. Or even if I can do it, I'll bring someone else on board and say, do you want to work on this with me? So, yeah, so that's the networking side of it. I'd say I think it's saved my sanity too.

Laughter

Steve Folland: The social element?

Angela Lyons: Yeah. Because I'd say, when I first started freelancing, there was nothing like this. There was none of these communities. And I ended up going to these recruiters and they'd have their Christmas parties. And then I'd say to the other freelancers, Oh, we should do something ourselves.

So then we'd do something maybe another month or so and say, let's do this, meet up in a pub and we tried to do it but then obviously they get busy and then you just kind of think oh I can't be bothered anymore so you just go home do your work and then yeah that was pretty much me for I'd say best part of eight years of freelancing, it was pretty much by myself.

And during lockdown, I did not go online. I wasn't on social media. I hated it. I didn't want to see all those horrible stories coming up about what's going on with COVID. I know that a lot of people appreciated COVID meetups during that time and on being online, but I actually could not.

I just couldn't bear it. I just wanted to be with my family and make sure that they were okay. And so yeah, when I first started freelancing, I was pretty much by myself. I just got on my jobs, just did them. And obviously I'd go out and meet my friends and family and stuff like that, but I wasn't more so involved in communities or freelancing communities, whereas I am now.

And that came about really with Freelancer Magazine and Sophie Cross. So Sophie, we'd worked together on magazines as well. Again, that contact came through a printer that printer, his name is Bob he's still around, he's brilliant and I still meet Bob every now and again for dinner.

And he said, there's a lady that's got a magazine in a hotel, and they've got an editor, but they need a designer. Would you like to do the design work? So I sent an email across saying hello. And then me and Soph worked on this hotel magazine for a couple of years, and we'd never met. We just spoke on the phone or through emails.

And then, when was it? That year that Freelancer Magazine started, Soph texted me on New Year's Eve and said, I've got an idea. Let's create a magazine. I was like, Soph, it's New Year's Eve and I'm about to go out and you should be going out and let's talk tomorrow.

So then she texted me. When she said I've got an idea for a magazine for freelancers. I'm like, I'm sure there's one out there for freelancers because there's a magazine for everything. I work in magazines and I've seen hundreds of magazines. And she said no, there isn't. And I was like, I'm sure there must be.

And there wasn't.

I said, okay, let's do it. So I came on board as the designer and art director, and we're working on issue 16 right now.

Steve Folland: Wow, so that must be four years.

Angela Lyons: That's four years. Yeah.

Steve Folland: Has working on that particular project of Freelancer Magazine made a difference to your business?

Angela Lyons: A hundred percent. I'd say again, meeting people. getting exposure people want to work with me and putting myself out there a bit more, not a bit more, a lot more, a hundred percent more. It was funny because I think I'd had an Instagram account, but I posted a random picture of something years ago.

And then when Freelancer Magazine came out, Soph had tagged me on my Instagram profile and I opened up my phone. I was like, what is that? There was like notifications for Instagram. I'd never seen it before. And I was just like, shit, there's loads of notifications here, who are these people? And they started talking to me, and then people started asking me about myself. And I was like, what is this about?

And then I started promoting myself a bit more, and then talk to people a bit more, and Soph was just bigging me up a bit more. And it was a bit overwhelming at first ,not saying I was famous or anything like that, but it was just... I wasn't used to that kind of exposure, especially being online.

So ever since then, little by little, I've been putting myself a bit more then a little bit more. And then people wanted to talk to me. And then when I meet people in person, in real life, they're like, oh, you're Ange. And I'm like, Oh yeah, I am Ange, and then it's just been really, really nice talking to people, being asked to speak.

I got asked to speak at an event two months ago in Edinburgh, at the Magazine Centre Conference, and that was with Nikki. And she'd asked me a few times before, and I'd always said no. I'm part of that community too, the International Magazine Centre. And I'd said no, I'm not speaking, that's not for me.

And then she finally asked me again, I said, okay, I'll do it. So I did. Again, being part of Digital Women, that's, I wouldn't have found out about that if I wasn't online. Again, because of Freelancer Magazine and just talking to people more. And then earlier on this year, I was speaking with them on a panel.

And again, all of these things, they've led to other conversations with other people and that's why I say it's changed my business. Totally.

Would I say it's bought me more money? Yes, I'd say so, but I'd say more for my personal, oh my gosh, I'm going to say it, my personal brand. Yeah.

Steve Folland: It's brought you more work, or a different kind of work?

Angela Lyons: Yeah. I'd say different kind of work. Obviously through the magazine, other people have said to me, would you design my magazine which has been brilliant and then after that people said oh, do you do branding which I hadn't like really done because I'd always focused on I suppose magazines and reports and brochures and infographics and then people said oh but you've got your brand and I think yours looks nice, could you do my brand and work with me on a brand. And then for the last few years I've been more working on brand work for people and creating brands for them And then they sort of like say, Oh, can you do a website?

And then I'm like, well, I've designed my website in Squarespace. I can help you do yours. And then I'm like, Oh, actually that's a service. I will start selling that too. So I've started selling that too. Obviously, I haven't told loads of people about that on LinkedIn. I should market myself more.

And I'm always, always, always telling people to market themselves more. And am I doing it myself? Am I doing it myself? I suppose there's different ways of marketing yourself though, isn't there?

Steve Folland: Yeah. I mean, being visible and being in conversations in itself seems to be working for you.

Angela Lyons: Yeah, that's marketing. Yeah. So as I said, being interviewed, actually funny enough, I got interviewed on a podcast recently. And literally after that conversation, she said, Oh, I know someone that's looking for a brand designer. Can I put your name forward? And I was like, that is the quickest referral of a podcast ever or marketing ever.

It was brilliant. I was like, wow, that was quick.

Steve Folland: So have you been on quite a few podcasts over the last year or two?

Angela Lyons: Yeah, it's been all good exposure and obviously, well, I don't know if it's obviously, but you put these on your website. I've put them on my website as a press page, and then they link out to Spotify. So that's also been good for people finding me on Google. And backlinks. So that's been good marketing, I suppose.

So I do invest a bit of time in my website and I've done SEO courses. I've done one SEO course, which I actually finished. Cause I buy lots of courses.

I buy tons of courses that I never finished, but that one I actually finished. And what's really great about that one, it's Squarespace and it links to my newsletter that I send out every month called Fight Love Friday. And that also, I think must bring me some backlink somewhere because when I get new people contacting me on email, I always ask, how did you find me?

That is one thing on my contact form that I always say, how did you find me? And they'll tell me where. And a few this year have been, I found you on Google, typed in freelance graphic designer, UK, and you popped up and I was like, my SEO is working. And London apparently works. So. Yeah.

Steve Folland: Wow. That's fantastic news. So what have we got here? We've got networking in person, communities online, creating something in the form of Freelancer Magazine, which I guess you have more control over than some of your client projects, so that must be a great portfolio piece.

Being part of communities where you're then speaking on podcasts and standing on stage and then what else? So you've got a newsletter.

Angela Lyons: Mm hmm. I've got my newsletter and I've got my website where I write the blogs on and at the moment I've just started a... I've literally just started a podcast called Creatives Like Us. And it's featuring people of colour that are creative and I've wanted to start it for the last two years and I've never done it because, again, feeling like I was a bit of an imposter, like why would anyone one listen to this?

But funny enough, this summer I was at a friend house, a party and one of her guests there was a student and she's a marketing and design student. And she said, I've been looking for podcasts, honestly, randomly, I've been looking for podcasts that have creatives that are black.

And I was like, I'm sure there are some out there. And she was like, no. And I said, funny enough, I've been thinking about starting one and I hadn't really properly, properly started it. Just still thinking about it. And she was like, Oh, I'd love that. And then I thought, you know what? I'm going to do it.

So, I've been doing it. So, I've been recording guests. I wanted to release it in Black History Month this year. I didn't because, as you know, I'm sure you know Steve, these things take time and plus I'm working, I've got my family and all the networking places I go to, I just can't fit everything in. But I told people about it in my newsletter in October.

So I kind of released it in Black History Month. And then I'm going to release it in January and I've got to work on the marketing with that with Heather Pownall with that.

And yeah, and also, oh gosh, on top of that, I'm creating an event with Ayo Abbas called Creatives Like Us. And. Frankie from Doing It For The Kids community put a post out on Instagram saying an event space called UsTwo they're based in Shoreditch, East London, want to give this space up to people of color to have the event space for free.

And Ayo saw it and contacted me and said, shall we put an event on? I'm like, yeah, let's put an event on. I have no idea how to put an event on, but we are doing it. And Ayo is brilliant. And we've been selling tickets. It's been amazing. So, it's just, I just think, I can't cope with anything else.

That's it now. I'm at my limit. I'm at my limit. But I'm enjoying it. I'm enjoying talking to people and I'm sure I'm going to love the night. And honestly, people have been contacting us and saying, Oh, this is great. Can't wait for it to, to happen. It's on February the 13th 2025 next year. and, yeah.

And, sorry, going back to UsTwo. They gave us a space for free. Can you imagine? In London,

Steve Folland: You can barely get a pub table for free in London. That's fantastic. And that event has the same name as the podcast which hasn't gone out yet.

Angela Lyons: Yeah, exactly. The funny thing is, we were trying to think of a name for the event and I was like, oh mate, should we just call it the name of my podcast? 'cause it's the same sort of thing. And then we thought, oh my God, this is like, this is a thing now. It's called Creatives Like Us. It's a thing. So we've created a thing, so yeah.

Steve Folland: Which sounds like, I mean, seeing you light up about it, whether that ends up bringing you work or not, it sounds like it's filling you up.

Angela Lyons: Honestly, it really is. That's one of my brand values. It's kindness and it's just, I feel like I want to do something kind for people and just, you know, get people together and yeah, it's filling me up. Yeah, definitely.

Steve Folland: It almost sounds like there's two, I mean, and not halves, but two halves to your freelance career, like the first eight years or so in the past four years, five...

Angela Lyons: yeah, totally.

Steve Folland: It feels like there's been quite a big shift in those two. And yet it shows that you could run a business without being all online and being out there and doing all of these extra things for that first part.

Angela Lyons: Yeah, honestly that first part, I think I had zero expenses. I think I might have expensed my travel, that was it, into central London to work in clients offices. But other than that... my expenses now are just a bit crazy, especially networking and having nice lunches. But yeah, it feels, I don't know...

It's definitely a shift in the last four years and, well, I know the correlation is working on Freelancer Magazine and putting myself out there a bit more. Yeah, so I've got a lot to thank Soph for and I don't want to mention everybody else because there's loads of people and if I forget someone, someone's going to say, ah but yeah, a lot of my freelancer friends and you know who you are, have just been amazing.

And they've always been lifting me up and telling me to keep going, especially confidence wise. I turned 50 last year and I suppose... not late, I suppose a lot of the, my friends who are freelance, they're a lot younger than me, and I don't think the age has got anything to do with it, I suppose, but I just feel like... I feel like I'm getting younger, if that makes any sense, I feel like I've got a lot more, I want to get a bit more energy, and I just feel like I want to do a lot more things that I've kind of not done.

I suppose the first eight years of freelancing and that was because I just carried on. I just, you know, just wanted to make money to pay my bills for my family. One of my biggest things when I first started freelancing was I wanted to pay for my gym membership. That was like the biggest thing.

Cause I like going to the gym. And also on Sunday afternoons I'd go to the swimming pool and there was a sauna on the side and that was my time. So that was one of the things I thought I've got to make money to pay for my gym membership. So I just carried on working. I took on every job. I was like, I've got to pay for my gym.

And obviously, through the years work got more and more to the point where I didn't even have time to go to the gym, but I've made time to go to the gym.

Steve Folland: I'm wondering though whether there's because - I kind of feel this from when I started my business and I would be there for the kids to take them to school and get them home and make the dinners and all of that sort of thing, is that obviously as they get older that changes what you're able to do as well. If you've been in business 12 years, they must have grown up a lot by now

Angela Lyons: My kids now are 17 and 15 and they're both doing their exams next year, A levels and GCSEs. And do you know what? Everything happens in a good time. I always say God's time. I'm a Christian. And I think those first eight years were me focusing on my children and freelancing gave me that. you know, that avenue to focus on my children.

I could be there for them. I could also take on more work. I could work in the evenings and now they're older. They're literally saying to me, where are you going now, mum? When they see me coming down the stairs dressed up or... like even this morning, I was dropping my daughter to the bus stop. I said, Oh, I'm talking tomorrow at a Cowork Crew event.

I said, I've got a talk. I'm a little bit nervous, but I'm okay. But she goes, Oh, do you want me to come? Because she's got an INSET day (a day off school in the UK) tomorrow. I was like, It's all right. But so they've just been brilliant, my kids, because they've seen how both of us, both mum and dad work and my husband's full time...

funny enough, he started freelancing years ago and that's why I've got the name Lyons Creative because I started freelancing first and I had my name as Angela Lyons Designs. You remember that day when I said, I'm just going to call myself a limited company and I just did that. And then he said, Oh actually he said, I'm going to go freelance.

And then he goes, but I can't put that name on the invoices. So he said, let's change it to Lyons Creative. And that's how I got my name. Just stuck with that.

Steve Folland: So that you would work together?

Angela Lyons: Yeah, that we'd work together.

Steve Folland: You could have both had separate companies.

Angela Lyons: Yeah, I know we could have, but he said no, you've already got the company, let's do it all together.

And, do you know what? It was , yeah, he had his jobs coming in, I had my jobs coming in.

Steve Folland: So what does he do? So if you're the designer.

Angela Lyons: Oh, sorry, yeah, so he's a digital designer, he's an art director, and he works more in web based applications. So, yeah, he was he's a creative too,

Steve Folland: So suddenly you're working together.

Angela Lyons: Yeah. And he had his projects. I had my projects.

Money's coming into the business. It's all great. And then about three months later, he said, Oh, I've been offered a job by this sports company. And because he loves sports. It's like, it's kind of like my dream job. It's like I've been designing apps for sports companies like LTA and FIFA and blah, blah.

I was like, Oh my God. Oh my god, I've just changed the company name. So yeah, that's how I started Lyons Creative, that I had to change the name.

Steve Folland: Lyon's Ryan's Creative is a great name though.

Angela Lyons: It is, well, it wasn't my name, I wanted Angela Lyons Designs.

But yes, it's good, it's good. And for the longest while we didn't have any branding, it was just, again, I think it was about eight years I didn't have any branding. And then I just thought, people are still buying off me, I didn't have proper work on a website and it honestly you don't.. Sounds awful like now I tell everybody you've got to be online, you've got to sell yourself, but I think it might be harder now actually, there's a lot more I suppose people out there and designers out there.

But I didn't have a website for the longest while, or I did, but it was like really old work. I didn't have any branding in place, it was all plain black. But people still bought from me, so, yeah.

Steve Folland: Yeah. So how have you found the work life balance ? I mean, obviously it's shifted. I would have thought immeasurably across 12 years. So maybe we should focus more on today or any changes you've made, like work life balance wise. How do you find that?

Angela Lyons: I think, It's weird because I was reading something the other day and somebody said, there's no such thing as work life balance, it's just life.

I was like, okay, interesting. And my life is, yeah, about my family and I will try and work from nine till maybe six o'clock. And sometimes it goes out into the weekends, but if that happens, I might take a day off in the week.

I might take some time off in the week like to obviously make time to talk to people to network, but that is work. And for me, I love exercise. And I love cycling. And that is something that I've just discovered again over the last couple of years. I've joined a group called Black Women on Wheels BWOW for short, and they have been the most amazing set of friends that I've met over the last few years.

I've actually been to Ghana with them. We've done weekends away and funnily enough, I actually designed their kit, because they were looking for someone to they wanted to design their kit. They'd already had a logo in place, but the designer of the logo just disappeared. And so I've kind of, I took it on board and developed it and I've done their social media graphics for them for the last two years.

So I think I mentioned before, one of my values is to be kind. So I do a bit of pro bono work throughout the year. So the balance of life is, I suppose... you've got to work out what's important to you and I will take that time off at the weekends and I'll go and cycle with them.

If I know that I've done enough work for the day, I will just switch off all my emails and just do whatever I need to do for me. And obviously spend time with my family if I can. But then again, my kids, as I said, they're older now. They're either revising or they're out with their friends or, you know, hanging about in their bedrooms around the house or wherever.

So the work life balance has been interesting. over the past few years because I keep on taking more things on and I know that I've got to stop at some point and a lot of people do tell me that. Especially I've just finished a program with Santander.

They've had a Women In Business leadership program. Again, it wasn't a course, I didn't buy it. It was more so. I joined it last year because I thought my business just needed a bit of focus. I just needed to, because I was doing lots of different things and not paying attention, I suppose, to what was actually happening in my business.

And they gave us a mentor. And for the last nine months I've been working with a mentor. And she made me do a few things that I'd kind of just been slacking with which was not great, including invoicing clients. Obviously we all want money and we all have to get the money in. But she was like, set aside one day a week and do your invoicing. I was like, no, no, no, I'll just do it whenever I feel like it. And she was like, what are you doing? I was just like, I know this is me. Cause I just, I love creating. So I'm sitting there creating and, she's like, you need to bring the money in at a certain time. So they put all these little things in place for me.

And not only that, it's just, it's just been really good talking to them about various parts of your business. But that was one of my biggest things was contracts and invoicing all the horrible rubbishy stuff that you don't want to do but are really important in your business. So I focused those more on that this year that's after 12 years, can you imagine?

Steve Folland: But is that the first time that you've had any form of business mentor or coaching or any of that kind of thing?

Angela Lyons: Officially I suppose, as an official capacity, I suppose, because I've done like co mentor with Ayo but she's a friend. So sometimes we'd end up talking and chatting and doing work on our business, but not really focused on our business. So this was like focus time with a mentor that's in a professional field and can help you with your business. And there are loads of, um, should I say, I don't wanna say free, but there are loads of spaces. I know Nat West do one too for women in business and obviously the Santander one, but there are communities and spaces out there that help people with their business and for free if you look for them.

Actually, no, you know what, I remember, year before last, I had one that was given to me locally within my business, within my area, and that was a mentor where she actually helped me with a little bit more marketing and social media, I'd say.

But she was a mentor in my business. And she also put me in touch with other... oh my gosh, I forgot about... Jo Seeley. I forgot about Jo. She put me in touch with other communities and another company that I got work out of. And it was just, again, just, I wasn't expecting work out of this mentorship program, and I've got work out of it.

And that was actually one of my favourite things to happen this year. I worked for the Pegasus Opera Company, and they're an all black opera company, and I got to see my designs on programs and on the posters. And it was around the Windrush generation. So it's an opera on the Windrush and they want to actually bring that opera to life in a few years time.

But this was like a taster session of it. And I just thought, Oh my God, my, my work could be out there on an opera. So that was great.

Steve Folland: Wow. You mentioned values a couple of times. So have you consciously sat there and thought about this?

Angela Lyons: Do you know what, it's funny? I haven't consciously sat down and thought about it until, that's gonna sound weird... until I actually did.

I did some work with a few freelancers with the community and I wanted to work on my brands and I got I wanted to have a brand pack in place, but obviously we know that your brand is not just your logo and your colours and everything, but it's more so about what you stand for.

And I got these words out and I started... all the words started coming together and it was about sharing and kindness and being positive and obviously being creative. So yeah, I suppose it wasn't something that in the beginning I'd thought, oh yeah, I'm doing all these things. It was only when I sat down, I thought, oh, actually I've got these things in place already, but it was good to actually see it on a bit of paper, if that makes sense, and have it in place, that it's there now as my brand values.

Steve Folland: What difference does that make, though?

Angela Lyons: I think it helps me bring it back to people when I talk to them again. Say for example, yesterday, actually, it's a good example. I had somebody on my podcast earlier on this week and I was interviewing her. Then I saw something pop up about Adobe and I said, Oh, why don't you go to this event? It'd be great. And she was like, Oh no. I said, go on, just go and have a look.

And she went and she texted me this morning and said, Oh my gosh, thank you so much. So that value that I said about, Kindness and sharing and being positive. I passed it on to her. And those things are just in my mind, still it's good to have these things written down.

So you keep on suppose bringing it back into your business all the time

Steve Folland: Angela, if you could tell your younger self one thing about being freelance, what would that be?

Angela Lyons: Get accountants in place. Get contracts in place and research communities and be part of them.

Steve Folland: Does that mean that at first you stumbled your way through contracts and accounts?

Angela Lyons: Yeah, yeah. I just, again, I just picked an accountant that somebody recommended and I really should have done research and I didn't. I just said, okay. I was just a bit naive in that sense. Then it happened again.

Steve Folland: Okay, what makes a good accountant then?

Angela Lyons: Somebody that talks to you and is on the other end of the phone if you need to talk to them, if you've got a problem, you can contact them quite easily.

And those two people were not there for me. I've got a good one now. Thanks Martin. Gold Stag. Yeah, definitely a hundred percent get decent accounts and especially if you're a limited company.

Steve Folland: Ange thank you so much. It's been so good to talk to you. All the best with your podcast, by the way, when that comes out.

Angela Lyons: Oh, thank you.

Steve Folland: And all the best being freelance!

Angela Lyons: Thank You, Steve. Honestly, it's been such a pleasure and I love your podcast. I love what you do in the community. So, honestly, it's a real, it's actually an honour. I don't know if that's like a word that I can throw around, but it really is an honour to be on your podcast. So thank you so much. And you're great.

Don't cut that.

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