Case Study Buddy Joel Klettke - Revisited
About this episode…
CASE STUDY BUDDY FOUNDER - JOEL KLETTKE
Joel was originally on the podcast in November 2015.
Now it’s time to catch up on the intervening 8 years. As he’s gone from a single solo copywriter to being a married father and founder of a company.
We hear how Case Study Buddy grew out of a freelancing side project into a company with major clients and seven figure revenue. But is the grass greener?
From freelance to founder -Did being his own boss set him up to be a good boss of many?
Read the highlights in the next tab.
PARTNERSHIPS ARE HARD BUT WORTH IT
When Joel created ‘Case Study Buddy’ he brought on a business partner, former agency colleague Jen. Their skillsets complimented each other. Running a business with someone else isn’t easy but it’s worth it…
“Everything you've heard about partnerships being like a marriage is true.
You have to get along. And you have to be able to communicate. To talk through things.
I think Jen and I would both agree, the company wouldn't be where it is today without the both of us. I don't think one of us individually could have pushed it all the way to this point on our own. So there is an appreciation for what each side brings to the table and the value that we each have.
Partnerships are great. They're hard. But they they can be a real catalyst for growth and doing more than than you could by yourself.”
USING THE WORD ‘CONSULTANT’
Before ‘Case Study Buddy, copywriter Joel started calling himself a consultant. It made a difference to clients and it made a difference to himself…
“It made a difference to the kinds of projects that started to come my way as well as the prices I could charge for them. Even within copywriting there's a ceiling… But consulting just adds a different dimension to it because you're thought of and seen in a different way beyond just the production piece.
So I think it made a difference to clients, I think it made a difference to me too because to claim that identity for myself… I think just emboldened me a little bit to see myself that way. To charge more. To go from my $3000 websites to $30,000 projects and so on.”
WHAT SHOULD I BE DOING?
As more opportunities came Joel’s way he had to make decisions…
“It’s the best kind of problem to have but when you start getting too many great opportunities your psyche plays into it because you you will actually have, ‘am I not doing enough? Should I be able to handle this? What happens if I turn away this company? Am I burning a bridge to some incredible future?’
You can be very emotionally invested in these opportunities beyond just the financial and so you start to think ‘well should I be scaling? Should I be turning this into an agency? Should I be hiring? What should I be doing here?’ And unless you have done the internal work to define what's enough for you; what are you happiest to to work on… It can be really tough.”
COMPANY CULTURE MATTERS
If you’re building a company, it turns out the culture you breed matters…
“I always felt like ‘culture’ was a squishy term and is like okay, whatever… but it really does matter.
How you make people feel part of a team, how you conduct business, how you communicate with each other, how you define that. Your values. All of that does make a difference to who you can bring in, who you can retain, the happiness of your people, and ultimately the work you do.”
YOU CAN’T DO IT ALL
Joel’s life has changed a lot since 2015. Married. Kids. Employees. His main priority is his family but he has entrepreneurial tick lists too and he realises when it comes to work life balance it’s okay to know you can’t do it all…
“We all get the same amount of time in a day and I think the reality is there will never come a day where you're on top of it. You can only prioritize so much. Grieve the loss of the rest, but that's life.
You’re never going to have time to read all those books, play all those games, build all those things, start all those hobbies - you have to choose. That’s the hard reality. You have to choose and as much as that can feel a bit morbid, it's also really freeing. When you realize with every Yes, there's always a No to something else. With every No, there's always something else you're enabling. ”
More from JOEL KLETTKE
Case Study Buddy website
Joel on LinkedIn
Joel Klettke on Being Freelance Podcast in 2015
More from Steve Folland
Transcript of the Being Freelance podcast with Steve Folland and Case Study Buddy’s Joel Klettke
Steve
We have founder of Case Study Buddy Joel Klettke!
I mean honestly, there's a bit of a spoiler alert in there because I just introduced you as founder of a company - I'm pretty sure last time it was as a copywriter so… Let’s pick up the story from where we left of in November 2015.
Joel
So at the time I was really focused on copywriting and increasingly turning my focus toward conversion copywriting. Doing more on websites and landing pages. At that point if I hadn't already, I was just about to do one of the biggest projects of my freelancing career in the Hubspot project. I worked with them on a major overhaul of their primary site and and messaging and its was a really big undertaking. There was a really great case study that came out of it and that parlayed into a lot of new opportunities.
So I grew in confidence - I started working with more mid-market to enterprise-sized clients and started to move away from just referring to myself as a copywriter, because I I quickly realized the number of things that I was handling for clients as part of these engagements - the process I was bringing to the table, the research I was doing, the way we were translating that into initiatives beyond the pages or emails or whatever that I was working on. Finally it felt appropriate and safe to call myself more of a conversion copywriter and consultant - kind of add consultant to the end because there was just more happening I realized, than just the copywriting piece.
And so I was working more and more on mid-sized, enterprise, and larger projects and I was busy. I was really busy. And I was stressed.
Between when we last spoke and now I've had two kids, third one on the way ,got married - you know, so a lot of the circumstances of my life outside of work changed.
And the more that I worked on things… I was constantly busy… I would be booked out, I had more projects coming my way than I could handle and struggled oftentimes when something was a really great opportunity to say no to. And I kept raising prices but I'm still undercharging and and so you know I was doing great work… But I think around 2018, especially coming into 2019, I started to to feel like this is just not worth it.
I started to fall out of love with the craft itself and I think a lot of people I know, who are really proficient at what they do and who are experts in their field… You know Joanna Wiebe for example, they move into and out of the actual work itself - that it's really difficult to sustain your your passion and energy for the production part of it constantly. But then you miss it when it's gone.
And so as the circumstances of my life changed. I think my outlook on the future changed. My priority shifted. When you and I would have spoken in 2015 I think a lot of my focus would have been on trying to make as much as possible, drive as much revenue as possible, hitting those you know six figure years and then upwards and beyond. And it's not to say that that's not a worthy goal, but I think a lot changed for me as my family dynamic and and all of that shifted and as I just started to burn out a little bit on the copywriting piece.
Steve
So if we can just rewind a little. Getting Hubspot as a client. Such a high profile client made a big difference in this story. Can you remember - How did you land that client?
Joel
Yeah I think something that I was really intentional about early on in my freelancing work was networking and connecting with people and not networking in the sense of going and tossing out business cards and being one of those people. But I went to a lot of in-person events. I had the opportunity to speak. I met a lot of people in person and my mentality was never pitching for work at these events. It was always just trying to get to know people. And B2B especially moved so fast that people where you have nothing to offer each other at the time, can quickly turn into referral sources, people you work with, opportunities… And so I had built a really good network both during my time at the agency before freelancing and then after that I kept that up and so Hubspot was a result of of those seeds that I'd planted years before.
There was a guy named Matthew, I’m still friends and connected with him to this day - he was working with Hubspot at the time and knew they were going to be doing some overhauling to their their site. I had the chance to do a smaller project with him on some of their, at the time brand new CRM pages - they’d launched their free CRM and this was a big deal. So we worked initially on that landing page and saw a conversion lift of 20% and that kind of got the buy-in to do the broader site to bring that methodology we'd applied there.
And so much of my biggest and best work, even now in Case Study Buddy. - yes, we have more of a marketing and sales engine - but so much of our cornerstone clients, our big deal clients in the early goings and even you know still to this day, has come on the back of connections, relationships, networking, solving problems in public and being out there. That whole ‘personal branding’ thought leadership piece. It actually does add up to to a lot when you're intentional about it.
So when Matt and I originally met, we had nothing to offer each other. We just mutually admired each other's work and and he brought me in there and again that opened a lot of doors for me because it showed the world that I could handle accounts of that size. And when you've done one, others come around.
Steve
Awesome! I hope people could hear how much your eyes rolled when you said personal branding whilst admitting it works. So that point when you started calling yourself a consultant = did adding that word make a difference to your clients? Make a difference to you?
Joel
Both. I think conversion copywriting was getting more and more crowded. It's an absolute jungle today, you know conversion copywriting at the time was still somewhat novel, somewhat new. Not everyone was slapping that title on - and now everyone who writes a website fancies themself a conversion copywriter - which is okay I'm not here to to gate keep - But at the time it was new. It was getting more saturated and I think it made a difference (saying consultant) both in the pitching process because it made more sense, you know, the expectation was different because I wasn't being treated like hands at a keyboard… Joel has a process, he has the ability to audit and look at what we're doing. He can deal in voice of customer and data. He can help us assess, he can prescribe things strategically.
So I think it made a difference to both. The kinds of projects that started to come my way as well as the prices I could charge for them. Even within copywriting there's a ceiling you know, eventually even the very best - I mean beyond there's things like royalties and your real A list copywriters that can charge ridiculous amounts of money… But consulting just adds a different dimension to it because you're thought of and seen in a different way beyond just the production piece. So I think made a difference to clients, I think it made a difference to me too because to claim that identity for myself and be okay… you know I've always been hesitant to call myself even a conversion copywriter… I've always been hesitant until I felt like I've really earned a title or really knew my stuff and for me to put that on myself I think just emboldened me a little bit to see myself that way. To charge more. To go from my $3000 websites to $30,000 projects and so on. So it made a difference for both sides.
Steve
But then it's so successful. You've got so much work. It became hard to turn stuff away…
Joel
Yeah. The grass is always greener when you're working on smaller projects. You dream of the big project. And when you're working on the big projects, you dream of the smaller, simpler projects. You know it's it's hard to find what's right. And often that will ebb and flow. I love the challenge of a big brand engagement and I also enjoy the simplicity of and we’re able to just crush something and and pass it to a founder who's gonna be overjoyed with it.
It’s the best kind of problem to have but when you start getting too many great opportunities your psyche plays into it because you you will actually have, ‘am I not doing enough? Should I be able to handle this? What happens if I turn away this company? Am I burning a bridge to some incredible future?’
You can be very emotionally invested in these opportunities beyond just the financial and so you start to think well should I be scaling? Should I be turning this into an agency? Should I be hiring? What should I be doing here? And unless you have done the internal work to define what's enough for you; what are you happiest to to work on… It can be really tough. And you know, even when you're doing the work, there's still the fear of missing out on the other great work. For me anyway, it never really went away.
In those years, I was always nervous - if I don't take this on, will I be losing? What potential relationships? Because I'd seen how one thing could lead to another and so you know for me at least I tried to pack in as much as I could. What I was good at was defending the clients I did have - I wouldn't ramp so much in that I couldn't serve any one client to a high level. But yeah, it's tough to say ‘no' at the best of times and when you want some of these brands or opportunities or deal sizes that are coming your way and you simply just can’t… it's a good problem but this is still a problem. It's still hard.
Steve
So when did Case Study Buddy come along?
Joel
It started as a side project. So I was doing the conversion copywriting - that was my focus. I just wrapped up a project for WP Engine and someone who sat on their board thought it had gone well and said, hey Joel I advised this company, they're in need of a customer success story, is that something you do? And with that same mentality of you know, take every opportunity and explore all the things I thought well yeah, sure, for you, I’ll give it a shot. You know, it wasn't like a regular part of my repertoire but I can figure that out. I'll take it on.
And so it was through doing that project that a number of things occurred to me One - case studies are really difficult to do well; they have a lot of moving pieces. A lot of disciplines inherent. You have to be a good project manager, interviewer, writer, strategist. All those different things play into it if you really want to do a story to a degree of excellence.
You need all those things and that's interesting that they're difficult to do well. Lots of different disciplines and then also though there's a universal need for them if you're in business to business, if you're selling into other companies. Every B2B company wants these. Every B2B company needs these, sales teams want them, marketing teams want them - so there was a lot of demand for it. Beyond that it occurred to me that this was something, even though it's difficult, there is a repeatable process I could build around this and for the first time it seemed like this was something I could successfully build a team around and specialize in.
I had tried to hire a team before and it went miserably. You know, I learned a lot through my first foray into subcontracting. You learn a lot real fast about how your standards, your expectations… you know expectations not communicated will rarely be met. And so I had kind of shut that down. At the time it was more like blog posts. And it wasn't unsuccessful so much as it was so frenetic and I just felt like the juice is not worth the squeeze here.
But with case studies, this is something that I could build a team around. I could build a specialized service in. Conversion copy I found very hard to build a team around because once you're specialized enough to know how to do it at a high level, you’re probably making enough, that to go in-house with someone else is not an attractive proposition.
And then the last thing I kind of realized, is I surveyed the landscape - like surely someone else has planted the flag and said, ‘this is all we do - we've got a scalable team for it - we've built a process for it… And there just wasn’t.
There's Casey Hibbard, she’s kind of the OG of customer stories and I have a lot of respect for her and the work that she's done but she didn't have a team. She didn't have an agency. There are other freelancers who did them. But there's no big player. There's no market leader. Why not me? I'll give it a shot. It's been over seven years now - but in the beginning it was just this profitable side project.
I very quickly brought in a partner that I had previously worked with at the agency (I worked at before going freelance) - Jen and she's good at Biz Dev and Operations and that kind of thing.
And because it was, for me, a side project -I'm not able to do it on my own as well as all my conversion copywriting work. So, brought over Steven who I'd done some conversion work with and blog post work and he'd been with me for a few years and then we hired Lindsay on the interviewing front and originally as a copywriter… So it kind of grew organically over time.
And so our first year, very part-time, I think we did like $8,000 or something like that - not huge amounts of revenue. We weren’t charging much, but we were proving the concept and refining the the process and ironing out the kinks and and then the trajectory just really started to take off.
Over the years we started to get companies coming to us where it's like, social networks that rhyme with schmacebook harkitface. You know, big companies started to to come our way and recognize, ah this an interesting specialization here. It seems to be a need that we've tapped into and so we kind of went from small four figures in the first year to low five figures the next and then very quickly, okay, now we're kind of in the 80,000 range and then 200,000 then all of a sudden 600,000, 800,000. And so this thing started to grow under its own steam to the point that Jen and I realized like we really need to drive this ship intentionally if we're going to find out how far it can go.
And so just before the pandemic, we decided to make it more of a full time focus for the both of us and so since 2020 it's been more of my full-time focus. It's taken me out, for the moment, of the copywriting side of things and given me an opportunity to learn some new things. But yeah, that's the story of how this whole thing got going.
Steve
So you brought on Jen as a business partner. That’s quite a thing to do, even if it was a side project at the time and you had no idea how big it would grow… I'm just intrigued about how you felt about that. How did you know that would be a good thing to do? Did you get legals in place? How did you approach it?
Joel
I'll start by saying partnerships are hard and everything you've heard about partnerships being like a marriage is true. You know Jen and I had worked agency side together and we'd worked quite closely. And there are just things about Case Study Buddy that I knew I wanted to work on and things that I knew I didn't want to work on so much.
I knew for example, at that time I really wanted to be invested in the process, in developing that piece and and being part of the actual product and more of that operations side of things. And Jen, when we worked agency side, she was project management and had done business development and helped that agency grow. And I really respected her ability to manage projects and to drive new business and that kind of thing. Those were aspects that I felt for me, you know I was less talented in. I'd run my own projects as a freelancer and done a good job of it, but I felt like hey if this is going to be… I don't have time to do both.
You know in the early years, it was more of a handshake agreement. When the company was so small that we weren't doing substantial revenue, there wasn't even enough to cover necessarily the legal fees of getting thiss drawn up.
Originally Case Study Buddy operated as an alias of Business Casual (my business) - that was just simpler rather than incorporating it as its whole own company. So legally it was all mine. Though we had this kind of handshake agreement and then we did formalize once it was clear the company had some legs - we did go through the process of incorporating it formally in 2019 - we went through Legal at that stage. And I would say that's absolutely critical. To go through that process, it gives you a shared understanding of what the future could look like.
And then the other side of it is you you have to get along. And you have to be able to communicate. We have both come through different challenging circumstances in our personal lives. This past year has been challenging business circumstances for us. Things have been really challenging in the past six to eight months, just a lot of layoffs in the market and downturn and longer sales cycles and we've had to navigate that. But I think at the end of the day you have to have a willingness to communicate through it.
You know, I'd love to just say it's all sunshine and roses. It's not. But at the same time I think Jen and I would both agree, the company wouldn't be where it is today without the both of us. I don't think one of us individually could have pushed it all the way to this point on our own. So there is an appreciation for what each side brings to the table and the value that we each have. And yeah again, partnerships are great. They're hard. But they they can be a real catalyst for growth and doing more than than you could by yourself.
Steve
And then you bring on team members but were they freelance, as in when you needed them or actual employees?
Joel
Yeah that’s ebbed and flowed as well. It's really hard unless you're taking funding from somewhere or you just have a good nest egg that you're willing to invest. It's hard to go from no team to dedicated staff, at least I found it daunting at first. You want to be able to promise someone a salary that's competitive when your yearly revenue is not even that salary. It's pretty difficult. So in the beginning we were all freelance. Jen and I, even though we were owners, were both operating in more of a freelance capacity. Even long-term people, the first 2-3 years people who are now staff were at the time contractors and on retainers and that kind of thing.
Today we're more of a hybrid. We have some fixed staff. We need to have some fixed staff because some of the roles that we have in the business - project management and account management - I’m of the opinion you really need those people to be in it. They're very hard to contract those roles just given how much can change for a contractor and at some point you don't want fragments or pieces of someone's time, you really do need all of it. Some roles, like our production team members are still contract, though most of them now would be retainer versus project to project. And I like that hybrid. I like the place that we've landed. I think one of the dangers in taking on full time staff is, as I mentioned, coming through the past 6 to eight months things get tough. People aren't numbers. But when you've got fixed overheads and you care a lot about your people and you care about the longevity of the company sometimes that can necessitate difficult decisions whereas with contractors… it's not that you don't value them, but because they're not 100 % with you, it's easier to postpone or suspend things or dial down retainers or what have you. So it's lots of risk to both for different reasons and today I like the fully remote hybrid model that we've got - it's working for where the company's at.
Steve
And so what would your role be today?
Joel
Yeah I mean my role within Case Study Buddy has rarely been writing the actual stories, even from the beginning. I did a small number in the early years just to know what goes in before I hire or build a process right? My my role early on though was really more of the operations side.
The early operations side building out the process, defining the products, putting those pieces together in sort of the foundational elements of the company. My role these days? I still get involved in the operations side, I think Jen's a little bit more invested there and especially with some of the things I don't find are my strengths, the financial modelling, the policies side of things, the legal side of things, HR - it's not that Jen loves all those things but she's good at handling them.
And right now my role is really on the marketing and sales side building out the marketing program, building out the sales side of things, giving some direction there. I get to go on podcasts and advocate for the company and then as we try to tackle new challenges like AI - where does that enter our process? Does that fit in with what we do? I like to roll up my sleeves and get to go back a little bit to the process side and again build this out. What does it look like, how do we incorporate it? How does that happen? But these days it’s a lot on the marketing and sales front.
Steve
So much has happened, but what would you say you've learned most over that period?
Joel
Ah, every year brings new lessons right? I think there's a lot in retrospect that I would do differently and then there's a lot that I'm proud of. I think one of the lessons as we grow our team is… I always felt like ‘culture’ was a squishy term and is like okay, whatever… but it really does matter.
How you make people feel part of a team, how you conduct business, how you communicate with each other, how you define that. Your values. All of that does make a difference to who you can bring in, who you can retain, the happiness of your people, and ultimately the work you do. And so not underestimating the importance of culture I think is one big thing.
I think in retrospect I would have brought in an operations person so much earlier. The difference that made to our ability to scale and confidently bring in new clients and get out of one layer of the gunk and into another. It was huge and so you know bringing in someone. I think I would better understand when a business is ready for that now - you know, I always was pretty conservative where it's like, ‘well unless we have this full amount sitting in the bank account just there to pay someone as salary, we probably shouldn't bring anyone in’. And now I think I changed my tune on that a little bit.
Morgan, ultimately moved on to focus on her growing family, but she made such a difference for us in the time that she was with us and laid the groundwork for us to eventually bring in project managers and even the value again that our project management team. You know Julie and Simone. Their value to what we do outside of the production. It's massive. They’re probably the most complimented people on our team and that's saying a lot because our production team is really really good and people really like the work we do. But I would have brought that person in earlier.
You know, you don't realize how important to the longevity of a business… When you're running a company, it's doing $8000 a year, you’re not thinking ‘oh we really need a financial model. But those things become really important later and so you know, thinking ahead really matters a lot. And then I think the other lesson we've had to learn over the past year… I mean we grew. We were almost a million and half dollar company, you know Canadian currency but hey… so we're almost a million and half dollar company and we grew to that point largely without tons of marketing or sales energy.
We ran a small ad campaign, we did the odd small thing, but it wasn't like there was a focused effort. And then when the market turns, to not have those things in place is tough. And so I think investing intentionally in marketing and sales, having a good engine for it, a good plan for it - it's important in the good times as much as it's important in the times that are not so great.
And so I think I would have put more effort into that. But beyond all that I think this whole experience has just taught me the value of a really great team. You know, none of this happens without the incredible people that make up Case Study Buddy. The value of a great team. It's hard to work with people. It's different than being solo and freelance where you can make all the decisions and answer to nobody but yourself, but it's worth it to to figure that stuff out.
Steve
Do you think that original freelance mindset helped you build what you've built?
Joel
It's not all good and it's not all bad. I think certainly, Jen and I are both very type A. We're very entrepreneurial. And so I loved throwing myself into the building part of the business. The process, and outlining that and having a high standard of excellence - I think all those things serve us really well even now.
That ability to build my personal brand as an individual, it's fueling a lot of the company's success today. There's still a lot of work coming in off of the things that I share or when I get to speak and and that's not me taking credit for the company's success, it’s just a fact - we’ve been able to do a lot of what we can do because there has been a focus on being visible and having that feistiness to sell yourself.
I think though, there are detriments. Learning to take the hooks out and let go of parts of the process you've built and let other really capable people run with them - that can be hard if you're a perfectionist. I'm so used to doing things my way, to my standard. You can have blinders on to think your way is the only way, your standard is the only standard and that can absolutely crush the opportunity to build a company - people won't work with you if you're kind of overbearing and constantly editing their work or telling them what's what.
I think there's been a figure out process on some of those things. I'm really grateful now that those things don't trip us up so much. But you know it's definitely when you are used to answering only to yourself in terms of how you spend your time and the things that you do and what you invest In.
I think even to this day, I still have to remind myself. Oh yeah, there's a whole team waiting for me to log in to ClickUp and see what notifications are there. And I love my team right? It's not that I think I'm above them or anything like that. But it's just an adjustment to now be part of a process as opposed to just running loose and cutting in whatever direction you feel like.
Steve
You mentioned right near the beginning about feeling burnt out at one stage. What’s your work life balance like today?
Joel
Yeah I think I've come to accept that there's really no such thing as work-life balance. We all get the same amount of time in a day and I think the reality is there will never come a day where you're on top of it. You've got all the things done, you're like now I have time for all that stuff I've been putting off… like it's not going to come. And some priorities get decided for you when you have kids, unless you're a real piece of work, those kids become your priority. Your family, your spouse. These are all things I didn't have when I started out in 2013 and and those have been adjustments that I've made in more recent years.
You know the stress of the job and the stress of work and the hours and those sorts of things - Ten years ago I was 25, going out on my own - when you're 25, no one cares if you work till 2 am and and your body can kind of handle it. When you're 35, you’re going to hit a wall pretty hard if you're not taking care of yourself personally. And so the past six months especially for me I've been on a journey of trying to get back to good health and get back to healthy habits and making sure that I take my kiddo for a walk… That's time I can spend with him and be intentional. That's time that I'm investing in - you know my health and getting out doors and all of that.
So I think you can only prioritize so much. Grieve the loss of the rest, but that's life. You’re never going to have time to read all those books, play all those games, build all those things, start all those hobbies - you have to choose. That’s the hard reality. You have to choose and as much as that can feel a bit morbid, it's also really freeing.
When you realize with every Yes, there's always a No to something else. With every No, there's always something else you're enabling. I think the place I'm trying to be in now where I'm being much more intentional about where and how I spend that limited time, I think I'm being a lot more realistic about what I can get done, what I want to do with the time that I've got and the people that that I want to support.
Steve
There's a hell of a journey that we've talked about. Have you done that all by yourself? I don't mean about your team and your business partner, your family - I mean perhaps a mentor or a coaching program, those kind of things…
Joel
Yeah, you know I was on another podcast this morning and they asked the question ‘What will you tell your younger self if you could’… and I think my answer was ‘get over yourself and ask for help’.
The early goings for me freelance, there’s this real desire to present like I had it together, like I knew what I was talking about, like I didn't need a leg up. You want to be in a position of strength. I think that served me in some ways and I think that really hurt me in others.
It's hard to point to just one mentor because it's not like there's just one person that's just been leading me through all of this but there have been many different people who at different stages have contributed to to shaping the way I see things.
I think even some of my competitors are almost mentors in a way because I've been able to see the levels they're thinking on.
Different people come into your life at different times and help you learn different things. And I think on the balance side of things like my dad, now he's retired, but you know I I take a lot of lessons from him in terms of what's important and where to be present and where to dial back and things like that.
There's certainly not a journey you go alone, at least not if you're smart - and I think I spent too many years trying to forge my own way. And now, it's still for me, an uncomfortable thing to ask for help and be vulnerable - but I'm doing it more often and I'm appreciating the benefit of it.
Steve
Clearly there's a brand belonging to Case Study Buddy, but you've mentioned about how you and your knowledge and your head brings in work - your reputation - your personal brand. I'm just wondering about that importance. How have you kept yourself visible whilst building a company?
Joel
Yeah, my philosophy has just been solve problems in public right? Like at the end of the day, that's what people want. Whether it comes from a brand, from a person - we gravitate to people we feel have the answers to the things that we're trying to navigate.
And the reason that I I get skittish on ‘personal branding’ is not because it's bad in any way I just feel like so many people lock onto that term and then do the stupidest things imaginable. You know, just blasting out all this stupid content to elevate themselves. And I think that's the thing, is it's not really about elevating yourself, it’s showing how you can elevate those around you and make them better at what they do. And if I can show to the market and to the world that I am competent and capable and thinking about these things and sharing and open and hopefully kind while doing all of that… The goal is not 'oh Joel's so great’, but the the goal is that yeah they trust me and then by extension, ‘well Joel wouldn't have a team of people working with him that don’t also believe these things, look at these things, solve these problems’. And so to me the two have never really been at odds. It's never really been I have to promote the business or I have to promote myself.
You know my hope one day when I'm not working on Case Study Buddy at some point in the future, I hope to bring my audience with me - I don't hope to steal them from my past ventures or anything like that. I hope that they'll still derive value from those things but one day in the distance or who knows when in future I want to build trust more than anything. You know my brand hopefully is trust, it’s that I'm sharing things that people can actually go and do and when they go and do those things they go ‘hey that actually works’.
What gets toxic to me is just this like constant need to be an expert in everything, have an opinion on all the stuff - here’s yet another listicle style post of “ninety ways one percent of companies are using this AI thing that's been out for 3 minutes..” - stuff like that irks me a little bit and to each their own, again, if it's working for you, it’s working for you and who am I to judge? But I think the brand that I want to build is just ‘trust’ and I think that travels well.
Steve
It sounds like part of you thinks to the future, I mean so you're only 35? But you're thinking to the future and Case Study Buddy existing perhaps without you. I'm not saying he's about to leave everyone! But, it is a thing isn't it? When you build a company as a freelancer that only exists off the back of you really - you’re its strength but you're also it's downfall. Or you end up creating something that, all power to you, means other people can carry it on. Which especially as we get older - you’re not old, but it's on the horizon…
Joel
To be clear, I genuinely don't know what the future holds right? If I've learned anything over the past eight years (since we spoke), it's that opportunities can come at any time.
I think with Case Study Buddy the same vision remains. I still want it to be an incredible team. I still want it to have an incredible process, incredible product and like you say, there's no imminent… I'm not saying ‘I'm out of here and and see you later’, but my hope would be that if there's a future where I've gone on to do something else or I'm hit by a bus or whatever it might be… that company can live on. There’s just so much opportunity. There's a diversity of stuff. I'm getting to build a lot of new things within Case Study Buddy right now and learning to grow in new ways there. It's been a hell of a learning opportunity.
You know the things that I've learned running a company are things I never would have learned solo and freelance. You don't learn how hard it is and how agonizing it is to have to let people go, You don't learn how difficult it is to hire people and vet them. You don't learn how to build, or in my case at least, contribute to and think through a financial model… It’s been a huge catalyst for learning.. It's been a great catalyst for relationships and opportunities and I don't know where things are are going. You know like I said, there's no imminent change, but when I talked about the future and my potentially not being part of it. You know? Regardless my hope is that the lessons I've learned, the audience I've built, the team that is at this company now - my hope is that everybody is in a really great place where they're continuing to learn and grow and do incredible things.
Steve
Joel thank you so much. I always end saying ‘all the best being freelance!’.. but all the best being whatever the hell you choose to be in the future.
Joel
Thank you.