About this episode…

GRAPHIC DESIGNER LUKE TONGE

Luke needn’t have been scared of going freelance. He’d spent 10 years of agency life making great work and making a name for himself. Through writing, speaking and community, people knew he’d be a great freelancer even if he didn’t.

And whilst all of his income is derived from client work, that’s definitely not where all his time is spent

Luke devotes huge amounts of energy to Birmingham Design. Joining forces with his friend Dan to organise events, workshops, a shop, website, directory, mentorship scheme and a massive festival celebrating and nurturing the creative scene around them.

Read the highlights in the next tab.

THE JOY OF BEING YOUR OWN BOSS

Luke worked in agencies for 10 years before stepping out on his own. He realised that unless you’re the creative director you’ll always be a ‘cog in the machine’…

“I definitely got to a point where I thought I wanna be the one making the decisions about how I spend my time now. And for me that means I can decide I'm not gonna do any work today. I'm gonna go and meet friends, or I'm gonna go to the cinema in the middle of the day and have some self care, or I'm gonna design a magazine now and spend a month on it because I can do that because I just did a good that's paid well and that's covered me for a couple of months. So that for me is the real joy of being my own boss.”

GETTING KNOWN SPEAKING LOCALLY

Luke is shy and describes himself as a ‘reluctant public speaker’. And yet he’s built up a reputation in his area by speaking at events…

“I think I just said yes when someone asked me. The next time someone asked, I said yes again and, and again and again. And if you say yes to these things, then more people will ask you.

Every time you do a talk publicly, you probably get 1% better, 1% sharper, 1% less nervous.”

GIVE THINGS A GO EVEN IF IT SCARES YOU

A lot of what Luke does with the design community in his city means putting himself far out of his comfort zone. A phrase from his wife sticks in his mind…

“She'll encourage me and say, 'get out of your own way'. Don't write yourself off because you're an introvert or because you're shy, or you're self-conscious. Just figure out a way of doing it or get the guts to do it and see what it's like and if it doesn't work, you don't have to do it forever, that would be crazy.

But if you do it and you find that you're okay at it or that you enjoy it…
Maybe you need to kind of stop writing yourself off and give things a go..”

WHAT MAKES A GOOD COLLABORATION

Luke collaborates with other freelancers on some larger projects and on organising events in Birmingham, plus he considers his relationship with clients as a collaboration too. So what makes it work?

“I think that a combination of… integrity and openness, trust, honesty, mutual respect, and frankness and a boldness in communication tends to lead to good outcomes.”

DON’T WORRY so much WHEN A CLIENT LEAVES

There’s a natural cycle to client relationships, most don’t last forever - so let’s try not to overthink it and take it too personally…

“When you know that they're then working with someone else or that they've gone elsewhere, you immediately think flipping heck, what did I do wrong? Or how could I have serviced them better so they didn't leave? Or was I too expensive or was I too slow or was I not good enough?

You can go around in circles and worry about that more than you should because there's a natural life cycle with brands and their agencies and with brands and their designers. And I think the 10 years in industry that I did had prepared me for that, that there's always a season of working well with a client - and it only takes someone else to come into a client side who has a pre-existing relationship with an agency or a designer, and immediately you just lose that slot because they use their preferred person or budgets change, marketing objectives change, directions change, and you just have to take it on the chin and accept that that's part of being a designer.

I think unless every client is ditching you every time, it's probably not something to be so worried about.” 

More from LUKe TONGE

Luke’s website
Luke on Twitter
Luke on Instagram
Birmingham Design

Also mentioned in this episode

Being Freelance podcast with Aaron Draplin
Being Freelance podcast with Tianna J Williams

More from Steve Folland

Steve on Twitter

Steve on Instagram

Steve’s freelance site

Steve’s Being Freelance vlog

The Doing It For The Kids podcast

Transcript of the Being Freelance podcast with Steve Folland and Graphic Designer Luke Tonge:

Steve Folland:

How about we get started hearing how you got started being freelance?

Luke Tonge:

Sure. A quick potted history. I did the university thing and I was very fortunate to study down in Falmouth in Cornwall, and that was in the mid two thousands - heady days, when everything was well in the world. And I graduated into a recession, which was not so good. So started my career in Woolworths, in fact looking for a design job and found one eventually. Did three years in a big agency and then another seven years in another agency. So after my 10 year period was up, I felt I'd qualified enough to take the leap. I probably should have done it sooner. But yeah, so I did 10 years in industry and then I've been five or six years freelancing since then and have done multiple things in those six years. But that's the big overview.

Steve Folland:

So how did you go about getting your first freelance clients?

Luke Tonge:

So I was freelancing while I was still full-time employed, which I don't necessarily recommend, but a lot of people do. I think if you're not completely creatively satisfied in your day job, it's quite natural for designers to pick up bits and bobs on the side that kind of scratch that itch or bring in a bit of supplementary income. So my first kind of proper freelance job was a magazine called Boat Magazine that I was entrusted to design the first issue of and the subsequent five or six issues - when I was probably a year into my first job. And that kind of fell into my lap via a friendship and a connection. And they just said, Hey, we want to launch a magazine. Do you wanna design it? And I said, yes, and kind of learnt as I went. And that lasted three or four years. So that was my first kind of proper freelance job while I was still in employment.

Steve Folland:

Did that make you wanna do more?

Luke Tonge:

Oh yeah, completely. So I was kind of smitten with the format. I was already really a lover of print and I was already realising the kind of boundaries of what the commercial world of design that I was in would offer me satisfaction wise because of all of the usual things of amends and, you know, realistic expectations of clients and what they want to do. And I, I just craved a little bit more creative freedom. So once I'd kind of realised that I could get that and I could importantly kind of work with other like minds with more of a vision for something that was a bit of a pure representation of an idea rather than something with very commercial ambitions, it really did get me hook line and sinker. And I kind of continued in the freelance magazine by night designer mode for a number of years after that on a number of other titles.

Steve Folland:

Was ;Hook Line and Sinker', the second one after Boat Magazine?!

Luke Tonge:

<laugh>, it should have been <laugh>, So yeah, I was very fortunate actually that although that was a passion project with friends that wasn't paid, it did lead to paid work and to very satisfying, enjoyable, editorial design projects for years afterwards. So I've got a lot to thank that first kind of dabble in freelance for.

Steve Folland:

You said that you wish that maybe you'd gone full-time freelance sooner.

Luke Tonge:

Yes, I do. Well, I, I don't kind of want to dwell on ideas of regret and I'm very happy that everything worked out well. So I think I left at the right time for me because I was a little bit chicken and I kind of waited to be pushed rather than jumping into the big freelance world. But I was kind of unhappy in my agency role and I think the agency were unhappy in me and my agency role, so I probably could have left a year or two earlier and avoided the stress. But in retrospect, you know, the day that I actually handed my notice in and decided to quit, I got a call from the university asking me if I wanted to start lecturing part-time. And I think that timing was, you know, very fortuitous, and providential and it, it may not have worked out so well if I had made that leap sooner. So I was probably ready sooner and I'd seen lots of other people go freelance much earlier in their careers than me, but I was just clinging on for dear life, I think due to fear of... thinking, probably.

Steve Folland:

You say that the university came knocking just as you needed someone to come knocking. But had you then built up a reputation of some sort by that point?

Luke Tonge:

Yeah, I guess I had both within a niche of editorial design, my work had been recognised and awarded and, talked about kindly by people. So there was that kind of side that I had a bit of a profile and that had led to a decent social media community following and whatnot. So I suppose, I felt like I had a degree of viability as a freelancer that it may not all go to pot, but also, I think importantly I'd got a decent reputation locally within the scene from speaking at events and doing work that was visible in Birmingham. So I think that there was a degree of, I'd already built enough of a platform for myself that it wasn't a completely wild decision to go freelance. It was just still scary because I was, you know, scared.

Steve Folland:

How did you get into speaking at events locally?

Luke Tonge:

I think I just said yes when someone asked me. Which is often the way isn't, you know, I'm shy. I don't really like the sound of my own voice. I hate listening back to things and I'm a reluctant public speaker. So it is ironic that I've done so much of it and that I do spend time on stage nowadays. I think I was just asked at something small and I'd already... we did smaller kind of things at work, even presented to clients, also presenting internally to teams and we'd had some training in public speaking, that kind of thing. So I guess I felt like I'd got a degree of a chance at not dying completely. And so I said yes when someone asked, and I thought there was a bit of a buzz to it, even though I was terrified.

So the next time someone asked, I said yes again and, and again and again. And if you say yes to these things, then more people will ask you. So I'd kind of spoken at everything that was happening in Birmingham that someone needed a speaker for, and exhausted the circuit in that sense. I tell people that are reluctant public speakers that every time you do a talk publicly, you probably get 1% better, 1% sharper, 1% less nervous. So I was probably like 10 or 15% less nervous than when I started. So I felt like I'd got a degree of experience I guess in that area at that point.

Steve Folland:

And so when you went freelance, 6 years or so years ago - what was your online presence like then? You mentioned social media.

Luke Tonge:

Yeah. Well, I was also very fortunate to have been part of a website call Form 55, which was a design blog that started around the same time as It's Nice That, and you know, it was one of the bigger design online journal sites - did interviews and reviews and that kind of stuff. And I wrote for them for about 10 years and was part of that little community. And that had really helped me make connections with industry people and I suppose had given me access to... you know, people used to send me books to review and I was taking pictures of people's work that they would send me to post about and that kind of thing. So it had just given me a bit more of a presence. And I think that plus the magazine stuff had started to lead to me getting a moderate following on socials.

You know, there were people that if I said I was doing something, they would see it and listen and notice and maybe care. So that was definitely a help. And I think also just from a kind of community point of view, I had a good network of people in agency and freelance locally and further afield that had trodden on the path before me and I could speak to for advice. And there were things starting to happen in Birmingham within the creative scene that I was part of. So although it did feel totally scary, actually quitting. I felt like I'd kind of got a bit of a safety net and some kind hands around me that would stop me from completely falling.

Steve Folland:

Can you remember, when you first went full time freelance - what were your first projects? Who were those clients?

Luke Tonge:

That is a good question. I can't remember exactly what the first one would've been. I know that in the first year of freelancing, I think maybe four or five of the bigger projects that I did were all connected to people that I'd worked with in the agencies that I'd worked at. So they were people that had also left and were starting up their own business and needed a brand, or one was a guy who'd left and was a creative director at a new agency, and he wanted his agency rebranding and he'd enjoyed working with me agency side. So a lot of it was really down to that network of people that I'd worked with on a first time basis. So it wasn't even people just recommending me to strangers, it was people that I'd actually worked for before or worked with.

So I think that softened the blow a little bit, because there was a familiarity and an ease of working, and you know, they didn't all go super smoothly, I'm sure there was a couple of bumps along the way, but that definitely helped secure that first year's income and gave me the confidence that I would be okay freelancing. I had, it's probably worth saying that I'd been working on a magazine for Monotype called The Recorder, which is a typography journal, and I'd been doing that right up until I decided to quit with the promise that there would be another issue the following year. And that was a good chunk of money and something that I was kind of banking on. And then after I quit, they pulled that project. So immediately I was like, oh gosh, this is not great timing.

This is kind of the rug out from under me. So rather than starting with something ahead of me, I had nothing but that didn't seem to stay the case for long. And actually I've never really had a period where I've not had work coming in or waiting for me. So I think that's probably testament to the fact that I waited so long that, you know, I was well enough known by that point within my little circle that work begets more work. And if you do a decent job for one person, you know, they'll recommend you. And if you share your work widely enough, people will see it and someone will need you. So that's kind of just how it's unfolded since.

Steve Folland:

Did you stay connected with people on LinkedIn or just by seeing them at events?

Luke Tonge:

Yeah,a combination. So I do a bit of lecturing and when I speak to my students, I talk to them about the Holy Trinity of social media for designers, and that is Twitter, LinkedIn and Instagram. And I was relatively active across all three of those and using them for different things. But, you know, I had a good community, a good connection base there on all of those platforms. So some of it was digital, which I felt quite okay with by then. And some of it was definitely personal, offline, meeting people at things and seeing people, but I guess the two work hand in hand.

Steve Folland:

And how did you feel about running the business side of it?

Luke Tonge:

A big weakness there, I'll be honest. Yeah, I felt terrified. I was the guy who was always filling his time sheets in like a fortnight late and putting things in on the wrong day. And no good at spreadsheets or any kind of time tracking or money tracking or any of that. So I still am not a good example for younger freelancers of how to do it. I kind of fly by the seat of my pants. I run a company now with my friend Dan - Birmingham Design that puts on a lot of events and stuff in Brum, and he's absolutely the opposite to me. He's brilliant at all of the admin stuff and just seems to get it and I struggle with it so much. It's like learning a foreign language. So yeah, I definitely had to adapt and make things work for me that I felt I could cope with.

So I got an accountant quite early on. I'd already got an accountant, in fact, his office was just down the end of our road, which was convenient because I'd been doing magazine work for a while, so I'd needed to pay tax on that stuff. So he's been a godsend and that's been really useful for the kind of business side of things. From a kind of more soft side of the business stuff, I guess it's just been a case of good relationships with people and trying to always do right by people and do my best work - under promise and over deliver, not vice versa, and hope that that kind of generates enough good PR that work will continue to come my way.

Steve Folland:

So if we were to look at like where your income comes from - the different streams of it. You're still lecturing?

Luke Tonge:

So when Covid struck, myself and various other visiting tutors, we were all kind of nixed immediately, because there were full-time staff that needed the hours. Because the university that I lectured at also had a campus in Wuhan, it was kind of doubly tragic. So they just didn't need us. So I haven't been regularly lecturing for over two years. I do guest lectures now, so I'll go in... I went in the other day and did a lecture about editorial design, but I'm not frequently teaching anymore. So I do still split my time and kind of wear different hats, but all of my income comes from my client design work, and that's me working directly for clients, not going into agencies. It's me as a kind of studio of one collaborating with other people when I need to. And then the other things that I do that are community based aren't income generating for me yet.

Steve Folland:

Let's say what those other things are then. So you mentioned Birmingham Design...

Luke Tonge:

Yeah, so that's essentially a glorified company name for the Birmingham Design Festival. So that was how Dan and I started out with bigger events in Brum. We've been doing that for about five years now. And that is essentially a one big hit in June where we're putting a large multi-site, multi-day event with a hundred or so speakers. And that takes the best part of a year to plan and organise with a team of friends and volunteers. So that's kind of the big spike. But then we run some other events throughout the year. We run a smaller thing called Gather in Birmingham, which used to be Glug, which happens a few times a year. We have a shop, which is in the co-working space that Dan and I are involved with and based in. So there's various kind of strings to the bow.

And then there's a website and we do a mentoring scheme for young designers. And I design a magazine for Birmingham Design as well. So there's all those kind of different threads to that, that collectively probably take up about a third to a half of my time, which is a big kind of time sink, but it's also hugely enjoyable and satisfying and rewarding, and I'm sure has led to me getting other work because of increased profile and visibility and stuff. So yeah, while it's not a very sensible commercial decision, I'm sure I could be earning more money if I wasn't doing any of that. I wouldn't change it for the world. And it's part of the reason why I very much enjoy the balance of freelance because you can just choose what you're gonna spend your time on.

Steve Folland:

I love that. But I mean, it begs the question of... how do you end up organising a massive festival?! Did you start with smaller things and build up?

Luke Tonge:

Yeah, we did. And people often say to us, how did you start a festival? How can I start a festival? And the, the hard answer and the unpopular answer is, we spent 10 years making connections, practising on smaller events and kind of building up to it. Dan was running a meetup in Birmingham, which had good regular attendees, and I was starting to get involved with things outside of work. So I guest curated a Glug event, which was a big design meetup in Brum. And we kind of realised that we had complimentary skill sets and he was the one with the ambition to start a festival. It had never really been on my radar. I was just happily plodding along, trying not to get fired and thinking about freelance. And, Dan said, do you wanna go out for a coffee?

And I didn't know him all that well, but we'd been to each other's events and I knew him kind of casually. And he just said, look, 'I'm thinking about starting a festival in Brum. I'd like you to partner with me on it. I think we'd be a good team'. And we'd got a good group of mutual friends in industry who we called on and they joined us and we just said, let's give it a year and plan a big festival and see what happens. And it went surprisingly well. So we said, oh, we should probably do that again to check that It wasn't a fluke. So we did it the following year and that was also really good. And then Covid hit and other things kind of came along and we managed to have another festival this year, but we kind of realised that what we were doing works and there was a need for it, there was a gap here. And also that probably what we were doing was bigger than just a festival, but was more of a year round community initiative. So we changed the name, shortened the name to Birmingham Design from Birmingham Design Festival, and the festival's kinda our big thing. But we do lots of other bits now throughout the year, like I mentioned.

Steve Folland:

So like workshops...

Luke Tonge:

Yeah, exactly. And we run a website which has jobs boards and a freelance directory that anyone can sign up to. And we run a mentoring scheme for graduates, and we have the shop and the magazine and put on other events and support other people that are running events. And members of our team run other different events for different groups of people in the city. So we are trying to be a bit of a hub and a beacon and you know, a support for the industry here in the Midlands.

Steve Folland:

So what does your day or week look like? When you're balancing client work and all of that?

Luke Tonge:

Yeah, I mean, it, I try not to take on more work than I should, but that never really works out well. And I always end up saying yes to probably more stuff than I should for fear of work drying up. I think that's every freelancer's kind of curse and tension that if the work's there, you tend to say yes to it cuz you're worried that it might not be there in future. So I'm always busy and I dread the work life balance question because, you know, I work more than I should, I know that. So I work in a co-working space in, in the Jewellery Qaurter in Birmingham called the Joint Works. So I'm there most days. I'll start at eight and leave at four because my wife finishes at 4.30 and we drive home together and then I'll work in the evenings, most evenings, which isn't always ideal or always intentional, but the festival requires a lot of admin time, a lot of emailing and planning and whatnot.

So yeah, if I do that during the day, then I have client work to do at night. And if I do the other way around, then the other thing is still waiting. So there's definitely kind of peaks and troughs throughout the year and quieter seasons, but if it isn't the festival, there's always another event to be planning or a collaboration or a something. So yeah, definitely struggle to turn off. There's a really great quote that a friend of mine Jim Sutherland uses in his presentations: 'when work is a pleasure, life is a joy - when work is duty, life is slavery'. It's by Maxim Gorky. And I love that because for me, work is pleasure. I'm very fortunate to be doing what I love and what I think I was put on earth to be doing. So a working life does feel very joyful to me. It doesn't feel like a duty, or slavery. So yeah, I do struggle with that tension for sure. And my wife would agree if you spoke to her.

Steve Folland:

But between the two, organising Birmingham Design and doing your client work, do you specifically say, right, the next few hours I'm only doing this thing or I'm only...

Luke Tonge:

<laugh>. No. I wish I could. And I think actually sometimes if I have a rare day where I work from home, I could be a bit more disciplined and I can try and ignore my emails or put festival things out of mind for a bit. And if I have got a deadline or if I'm in a flow state - a good deep work vibe - I will be quite disciplined and stick on a project for, you know, a number of hours, even a number of days straight. But usually, especially now that I sit next to Dan in the Joint Works, we are constantly, you know, every 10 minutes we are chatting about something or we're sending each other something, or we're putting an order in for some books, or we're booking a speaker or we're discussing something that we thought of.

So work is quite broken in that sense. There's not a lot of good focused uninterrupted time. And I kind of like that. I think I like 'bitty', I'm the sort of person that won't just do one job and do it start to finish, then start the next job. I'll be like doing six different jobs around the house at the same time, 10 minutes at a time on each one, and I'll kind of rotate around them. So I think my brain's kind of wired that way, and I'm okay with that as long as all of the projects keep advancing.

Steve Folland:

So you like being in a co-work space then?

Luke Tonge:

Yes. I missed it very much during Covid, as I'm sure you know, most people did that were forced to work from home. And while I love my online relationships and long distance friendships and things, there is just something so rewarding about being in a physical space with other people and serendipitous little interactions in the kitchen making a drink or, you know, getting some fresh air and bumping into someone or whatever it might be. So yeah, I'm very much an advocate for being out amongst the people. And then, you know, I love also days from home where I'm on my own just listening to music or Netflix in the background and I'm just getting on with my work. So I think a balance is what's working for me and is keeping me kind of sane and productive. But it varies so much, doesn't it, based on what role you're doing and how much interaction you need with other people and those kind of things.

Steve Folland:

It's funny, you seem like you love it so much that I almost wonder how you coped just sitting in one office in an agency.

Luke Tonge:

<laugh>. Yeah, well, I don't think I coped brilliantly well, is the honest truth. I was fortunate that the design team that I was part of, there was some really good people in that, including one of my best friends, a guy called Matt. So that kind of sanity was good and getting out for a walk at lunchtime was good, et cetera. I think it did kind of grind me down over the years and that idea of other people making 99% of the decisions about work and about, you know, what you were working on, what the work should be about, it was kind of death by a thousand cuts in the end. And I felt like ironically, all of my kind of agency to direct the work had been removed while I was agency side. And I think that's fine.

Unless you're the creative director or the MD, you are just kind of a cog in a machine. And I learnt loads while I was doing that, but I definitely got to a point where I thought I wanna be the one making the decisions about how I spend my time now. And for me that means I can decide I'm not gonna do any work today. I'm gonna go and meet friends, or I'm gonna go to the cinema in the middle of the day and have some self care, or I'm gonna design a magazine now and spend a month on it because I can do that because I just did a good that's paid well and that's covered me for a couple of months. So that for me is the real joy of being my own boss.

Steve Folland:

You mentioned that sometimes you collaborate with others as it not in, in terms of Birmingham Design, but rather within your own business.

Luke Tonge:

Yeah. And that's been through necessity because I have quite a narrow skill set, so I don't love the term nicheing, but the idea of finding a niche, finding something that you're good at and sticking with it has really worked for me. So I try and only take on projects which are either editorial projects or brand design projects. And with a brand, there's a bit of scope there for rollout and advertising and, you know, general graphic design, but it's largely working with people that need a rebrand or a new brand for a charity or an agency or a small business or those kind of things. And that means that I'm very happy and, you know, I'm okay at those things, but it means there's loads of things I can't do. So if someone comes to me and says we need a new brand and we also need a website, I don't wanna say sorry, go away, I wanna say I'll do the brand bit and I know a guy or a girl who can do the other bit.

So I'm fortunate to be able to pull together and collaborate with friends and, other people in industry who are really good at those things I'm really terrible at. So sometimes that's a digital designer, sometimes that's a copywriter, sometimes that's photographers or videographers, animators, um, not usually other designers cuz I'm quite protective and enjoy doing that stuff. But sometimes it will be working with a junior or an intern who will obviously get paid for what they're doing. But that's more of a relationship where I'm hopefully showing them the ropes and helping them develop and grow. And they're helping me out by doing some of the heavy lifting on... you know, if a project is quite big and timelines are quite short, as a studio of one, you've only got so many hours in the day and when I'm doing so many other things, time can pass quite quickly. So yeah, sometimes it's just an extra pair of hands.

Steve Folland:

So if a clients comes to you and ends up getting extra stuff like a site or copywriting, will that all be billed through your company?

Luke Tonge:

Probably not. well it's worked different ways, different times and it depends on the client and the relationship and how it's come to me. Usually I would go into that at the beginning and say... So for instance, I work with a really talented friend in Birmingham called Ryan, who is a digital designer. I would go into it with Ryan and we would go in together and say, I will do this bit, Ryan will do this bit and we'll bill you separately and you know, we'll be transparent about costs and things and we'll work together, but we'll stick within our specialisms and together you'll get like a mini agency that's more multi-pronged than if it was just me. And we've extended that team out broader before to, you know, be several different people in different roles so it can get a bit more complex, but really the client ends up getting a much better cheaper product than if they were going direct to an agency, whether it be, you know, much higher agency fees and project managers and that kind of bloated agency things that can happen sometimes.

So with me in this kind of lean way of working, it's very much you, you get what you need and you get what you pay for.

Steve Folland:

Yeah. But they're dealing with all of those independent people themselves.

Luke Tonge:

Exactly that. Yeah. And I suppose I do act as a project manager sometimes on those things if I'm the key contact for the client for instance, but I always like dealing directly with the client, so I always like other people that are working on things to also be dealing directly with the client rather than going through a buffer. So I think that's, as long as it's not a huge amount of individuals, I think clients quite like dealing with people directly that are working on their brand. So it makes no sense for me to try and interpret amends for a website when, you know, Ryan's the expert - much more sense for him to speak to the client than me.

Steve Folland:

And I'm intrigued about bringing on an intern. It can feel like quite a thing, especially when you seem like somebody who obviously enjoys the freedom to kind of just go and do whatever they want whenever they feel like it.

Luke Tonge:

Yeah, it's been a journey that really, because I've been involved in mentoring and having people that could be interns for a long time, and I've only recently in the last year or two figured out how to kind of make that leap work. Because the thing about interns is they're usually very junior and that's great because they're full of energy and enthusiasm, but they're not massively experienced just by the nature of the fact that they haven't been designing for long. So there is a degree of a trade off there that, you know, you are not paying them the same as you'd be paying, you know, a senior designer, but they require more time and energy from you to guide and direct and you know, art direct, whatever. So it has to be worth your while to get someone on board to then have to spend time, you know, helping them understand the way that you work and educate them and all the rest of it.

I mean sometimes it works really well and other times it doesn't work as well. But there's a couple of people that I've worked with like that... there's a young designer called Grace who has helped me on a number of projects, a couple of magazine projects and other things over the last couple of years, and that's kind of worked really well because she knows what she's doing, I know how she works and communication's very good between us. So yeah, it definitely can work. It's definitely a learning curve as well because you're then being back to a kind of design manager, which isn't something that I relish the thought of being. I don't have aspirations to start my own company and have lots of staff. I like being the one that makes the decisions and gets on the tools and does the work, but sometimes you do just need more pairs of hands.

Steve Folland:

When it comes to a job like a magazine, that sounds a bit more like a sort of retainer kind of thing than perhaps doing a branding project?

Luke Tonge:

Yes. Yeah, it can be. And it has been a couple of times. You know, people tend to not want you just for a one off thing, and that's good. If it's a programme for a cultural institution, they probably want something multiple times a year. And that means you can start to find a working relationship and learn the style and get into a bit of a groove and you can push things. So that is nice. But of course, not everyone wants to have the same person doing their publication for a long time because things can get stale - people like to freshen things up and work with different people, so those relationships are often ongoing for a period of time and then they naturally cease and you pick something else up that kind of fills its place.

Steve Folland:

You don't feel you've been kicked when they've moved on?

Luke Tonge:

I think that happens with every designer with every kind of client. When you know that they're then working with someone else or you know, that they've gone elsewhere, you immediately think flipping heck, what did I do wrong? Or how could I have serviced them better so they didn't leave? Or was I too expensive or was I too slow or was I not good enough? And I think you can probably go around in circles and worry about that more than you should because there's a natural life cycle with brands and their agencies and with brands and their designers. And I think the 10 years in industry that I did had prepared me for that, that there's always a season of working well with a client - there's probably a graph of like the green pastures and then the tougher times and it only takes someone else to come into a client side who has a preexisting relationship with an agency or a designer, and immediately you just lose that slot because they use their preferred person or budgets change, marketing objectives change, directions change, and you just have to take it on the chin and accept that that's part of being a designer.

Very rare will you work on a client for 40 years or something. I'm sure some people do, and there'll be exceptions to that rule, but I think unless every client is ditching you every time, it's probably not something to be so worried about. And I'm fortunate that a lot of clients will come to me when they need me, and then I won't hear from them for a year or two, but then they'll pop back up when they need something else that I'm suitable for. And I'd rather that than kind of try and drain them of every piece of work if I'm not the right guy, I'd rather be there when they need me for what I'm good at.

Steve Folland:

It certainly sounds like you have a great way of dealing with clients, but you also mentioned being shy as well. What do you think works well in standing your ground but being friendly? That whole client relationship thing.

Luke Tonge:

Yeah, it's tough. There's just a degree of how and when do you assert your authority when you are being paid by someone to do what they want? And there's a real tension there that all designers kind of face, which is, are you being hired to realise someone else's vision and just kind of produce what's in their head? Or are they paying you because you bring an expertise to the table that they don't have? And I think that client relationship is always different and always interesting, and always requires a degree of nurturing and a degree of compromise and a degree of education sometimes that you are explaining to them why you can do what you can do and how you work best and those kind of things.

So it's never straightforward. I like to think I'm relatively laid back and easygoing, and I'm very accommodating to clients wishes. So very rarely will I say, no, that's a terrible idea. I'm not gonna try that. But I will always give my opinion and speak my mind and say, you know, if you wanna do that, that's fine. We can try that, but here's why I wouldn't recommend it. Or here's why I think this idea or route or approach is better, and it's still their decision at the end of the day, but the hope is that more clients than not will trust you to do what you think is right and will pay for the expertise that you offer, rather than just pay for the service of generating something that they want. And I think that's where that kind of early piece of discovery and kind of fact finding and kind of sniffing each other out a little bit is where you kind of figure out what do they want before, is this gonna be a successful relationship or not?

Are there any red flags? And you know, you can still ignore those and go headfirst and it all becomes a nightmare. And you think, oh yeah, I should have probably listened to my gut. And other times it works out really well and surprises you and the client loves what you do and you learn from all of those things. So I'm still learning that. I'm five or six years in freelance, 16 years into my career, I guess, and probably one in 10 projects doesn't go how I would want it to. And at the end I'll be a bit disappointed and think, oh, you know, that one got away. That could have been better. They picked the wrong route, or I showed them the wrong route, or something went awry. But at least nine times out of 10, I would say it goes really well. They're happy, I'm happy, I get paid. I'm proud of the work, and it leads to more work. So as long as it's that kind of balance I'll be very happy.

Steve Folland:

And thinking about all the different ways that you collaborate across client work and Birmingham Design, what do you think is key to a good collaboration?

Luke Tonge:

Yeah, I think trust is really key. I'm really fortunate that I experienced that with Dan in that we both sow a lot of hours into something without really seeing the other one doing it. We just know that the other person is also equally invested and we're equally kind of sacrificial in what we're doing. And I don't question that, and he doesn't question that, even though we're doing very different things. So I think that trust is really beneficial. That doesn't always cut across every kind of relationship in every scenario.

I think clarity is really important when you're dealing with clients, particularly because you know, their work might be your biggest issue and your biggest thing, but you are probably just one little piece of their puzzle that they've gotta focus on that week. They're probably spinning loads of plates and, you know, if they've asked for a colour change or something, you can get really stressed and het up about it. And actually you can often just resolve those things with a bit of clear communication. And that's sometimes picking up the phone or going to see them or, you know, writing a clear email. But I think clarity is a real key - editing your thoughts down and just speaking really clearly and plainly and honestly. So I definitely found that that helps.

I think having convictions. So really being able to stand up for what you think and say what you think and have a good rationale is also something that people really respect you for. And if a client is asking for something that's a bad idea, it really is your job to tell them. So yeah, there's a degree of straightforwardness and sometimes bluntness. But, you know, being brave and saying what you really think, being bold in what you say and being clear in what you say, I think is, is really good. And then if they choose to ignore that, that's fine, but they were warned and it's their decision at the end of the day if they're the paying client.

So I think that a combination of those things - integrity and openness, trust, honesty, mutual respect, and frankness and a boldness in communication tends to lead to good outcomes. As long as you're not being like a jerk and just like, Nope, I'm not gonna do that. And stamping your feet. I think people like to understand the reasons for things, but if you can give them a good rationale, they tend to, you know, we trust experts.

You know, if you go to the doctor, you trust what they say because you know that they know what they're on about. And I think that's the kind of position that you try to be in as a solo designer, is that they're coming to you because you know more about their problem than they do, or you should do by the end of it. So although they will know their business inside out and you won't, you will know lots of things that they don't about trends and the market and good design practise and all the rest of it. So you can hopefully collaborate with them to produce something good.

Steve Folland:

If you could tell your younger self one thing about being freelance, what would that be?

Luke Tonge:

I would say that it is for you. Despite your shyness, that you can do it, but just don't rush it. And you know, when the time is right, it will happen for you, which is ironically exactly what did happen. But I think I'd spent a long time believing that I probably wasn't the right sort of person to go freelance, because I thought you had to be quite out there and confident and loud. And so, yeah, I think I would reassure myself that you will figure out how to go about doing it. It just may take you a bit longer than other people.

Steve Folland:

Nice. But despite you thinking that you had to be loud and confident, you know, all these other adjectives, you have made it work for you. But interestingly, you've also made it work for you in a way that involves being almost the centre of attention or helping other people be the centre of attention. Facilitating community and creativity around you.

Luke Tonge:

I know, it kind of baffles me too because it doesn't feel like a natural fit, but it does feel... like my wife is always telling me to get out of my own way. Like, if I want to do something but I feel like I'm not equipped or not brave enough or whatever, she'll encourage me and say, 'get out of your own way'. Don't write yourself off because you're an introvert or because you're shy or, or you're self-conscious. Just figure out a way of doing it or get the guts to do it and see what it's like and if it doesn't work, you don't have to do it forever, that would be crazy. But if you do it and you find that you're okay at it or that you enjoy it, maybe you need to kind of stop writing yourself off and give things a go.

And I feel like that's been the journey in the story of me with public speaking and events and things, is that it doesn't feel natural, but it does feel comfortable now and it does feel enjoyable now, which it didn't at the start. And I know that's because I've practised and I'm better at it now and I'm less afraid. And I think that a lot of people hate the idea of something so they never try it. They try it and they dislike it and they don't ever do it again. And I think certainly with confidence and public speaking and all of those kind of things, you have to kind of push through that pain phase and you eventually may well discover that you like it even though you never thought you would. And I think I'm a good example of that, that I'm kind of an unlikely front man for something that I never wanted to be and never really felt like was my role. But it was kind of a necessary evil if you like, to get things done. You have to step out and do things sometimes and lead things and I guess that's what I've found.