Exploring the potential - Art Director Erica Yunwook Choi
About this episode…
Exploring the potential - Freelance Art Director Erica Yunwook Choi
Erica was born in Korea, where she studied and worked before moving to London in 2010 to complete a masters degree. After that, Erica stayed in the UK and built a career as a designer.
Ready for a new creative challenge after 7 years in a full-time job, Erica began freelancing. Her first project helped her decide which direction to head in and it’s been a rocky but exciting ride ever since.
She chats to Steve about figuring out how to introduce herself, exploring the potential in both London and Seoul, and pursuing better clients who respect her skills, time and processes.
Read the highlights in the next tab.
Deciding on a job title as a freelancer
Erica has more than a decade’s experience working broadly as a designer and she’s also a photographer. She talks about the struggle to introduce herself and what she does.
“When I did the copywriting for my website it took weeks and kept changing every month. I went from creative lead or senior designer to just graphic designer, to art director or design director... so many choices! However, I've decided to wear each of those masks when I need them. I just accepted that I don't have to be defined by one.”
Freelancing in London and Seoul
Erica is Korean and has some experience working as a designer in Seoul, although she’s spent most of her career in London. Recently, Erica began developing her network in her home country.
“Just before the pandemic, I had a chance to travel back home. I wanted to go back home and enjoy my holiday as long as possible because I'm not tied to a company where you normally have 23 or 25 days of holidays a year.
“But I didn't really have loads of jobs lined up in the UK, so I was thinking, you know, maybe let's just not limit myself and see whether I can construct my network in Korea, and see how they see me and my experience. I was getting a lot of coffee chats and I visited some studios or workplaces and introduced myself and what I do. It wasn't like an interview, it was just conversations. One of my first Korean clients actually came from that time.”
Setting boundaries with clients
Erica says that clients in Korea can be overly demanding and often don’t have much respect for the designer’s time or process. Erica works hard to look for those red flags early on.
“I only want to work with clients who take my effort as a partnership. This goes the same way in London markets, but especially in the Korean market. I wanted to express that because I have had a really bad experience and I hear tons of similar feedback from my designer friends.
“I ask clients what they liked and didn’t like about previous designers, what they are looking for from designer. Casual conversations with them give me hints and help me to filter.”
More from Erica Yunwook Choi
Transcript of the Being Freelance podcast with Steve Folland and Art Director Erica Yunwook Choi
Steve Folland: As ever, how about we get started hearing how you got started being freelance?
Erica Yunwook Choi: You can get the big picture. I was really bored at my full-time job that I stayed for nearly seven years. It was an in-house role. I loved what they did. They were in the architectural planning sort of sector, but I kind of had enough. So I started thinking about, okay, what should I do? I did a little bit of freelancing before that full-time job while back in London. So I was thinking maybe I could go back to freelancing and now I have more experience, and I like to do more, like other sort of broad side of graphic design, not only graphic design, like doing a more photography related and typography related, to be honest, I felt a little bit doing the opposite. Being a freelancer at age, nearly 30 because most of people would, or like friends of mines were doing freelancing when they're like early start of their career or mid-weight.
Erica Yunwook Choi: And then they started thinking of settling somewhere as a senior or director. But then I was a creative lead at that company. And then to be honest, I didn't really see anywhere that I like to work full time again. So I didn't really have a choice in order to sustain my design career. Yes. I wanted to take a punt, let's say and for a year and a half, see where I'm heading, just naturally. And then as soon as I registered a limited company in the UK and I started telling friends and colleagues that I'm gonna do this, one of the very first client of mine contacted well they are thinking of setting a business by living this company that we're working together in a different profession. And so they wanted me to design their branding. So that was quite a kind of secret project because of, we all were still employees legally by the company. And yeah, we were like, so we started planning designing a brief together and then doing a branding using maybe a little bit of a existing facility that but overall I didn't really think much because as I said earlier, I didn't really feel like I had a choice. And so I prepared about four to five months just okay, what am I going to do? What should I do first and then next, but no plan how to run a business, at all.
Steve Folland: In what way did you feel that you didn't have a choice?
Erica Yunwook Choi: I was thinking, okay, well, I'm reaching mid-30 and I had almost nine to 10 years experience in design industry. What else I haven't done? I was thinking I haven't done a studio, like a big, big, like a branding project. Also, I haven't done my own commission work, so okay. I think it's time to tick those boxes and see, you know, what suits the best for me. So I had a, like a backup if didn't miss, if this didn't really work out then I could go back to full-time again.
Steve Folland: I see. So it felt, so it was really more like creatively, you felt like you had no choice. If you wanted to do certain things, you weren't going to get them to do them in a job somewhere. Certainly not in your current job. So you needed to go out on your own. That's correct. Yeah. So obviously you've got that sneaky first job on the side, but when you then did finally leave, did you have work lined up? Like what happened?
Erica Yunwook Choi: So I, as I said earlier, like I had a little bit of a freelance experience about six to eight months before getting the full-time job. So I did that only through recruiters. So my logic was quite simple. So I got back to them simply by dropping emails and calls. Hello. Do you remember me? So I was just literally, didn't really have a plan how to getting the commission work. First of all, I wanted to go freelance somewhere at the agencies or slightly smaller scale, like organizations and teams, but that didn't really work out. This my, I registered like loads of different recruiters companies, but somehow my phone wasn't really ringing as much as I thought and not as much as the past. I think I was getting more busy, busier. Back then when I was like, a junior, or mid-weight, somewhere between, so I started thinking, hang on a second.
Erica Yunwook Choi: Why is my calendar not booked or, you know, what, why most bookings coming? And then kind of slowly, this is like a painful kind of points that I realized maybe I've got too much experience to hire me. Maybe there are more jobs available as a mid-weight or senior and the world. And then time changed like eight, nine years ago that they were digital jobs, like product design or UX/UI. But I never actually learned at the uni and at my masters cause I did visual communication and communication design in MA and interactive design and digital environment designs were in a separate subject, like completely different subject, not even part of my course, so I realised, okay, my specialities are not as much as need in freelancing market, so oh, okay. What I kept trying, trying,
Steve Folland: Trying, trying, but through the recruiters
Erica Yunwook Choi: Yes. Through the recruiters, then my experience in the architectural and planning and property sector was quite strong. Gladly. I had a couple of bookings through recruiters. So I got the couple of months bookings for the architectural practice that I was really adored to work with him because one of the amazing British architects. So I was really thrilled that I got that. So that's probably the very first, maybe after after quitting my full-time job, then I did a little bit of a, like a little bit of a more branding for that startup company, like additional work setting up stationaries and little bit of more consulting what they should do with this branding solution and so on then. But yeah, that's how I got how I started.
Steve Folland: And how about the way you were sort of like presenting yourself at that point? Like what were you calling yourself? You mentioned registering limited company before you went and left your job.
Erica Yunwook Choi: Yeah. the, the reason I went on limited company a lot of recruiters of course, and my previous workplace, they all recommend me to go limited. I didn't even think too much about it. I think, you know. Okay. I'll just going to set a company.
Steve Folland: Did you give yourself like a company name or did you go as Erica Choi at that time?
Erica Yunwook Choi: It was January and then I was still employed legally by the previous company and I didn't really want to delay any second by registering and getting ready to freelance. So I just went on my full name, which includes my legal Korean name. It's quite common for Koreans and like other Asian friends who like creates their English name, some of them don't, but majority would have the English name cause it's like less hassle. So my name Erica has no power in the legal sense. And plus I know there is amazing art director in New York based in New York called Erica Choi. So I, they would not really good if I call Erica choy limited by those two reasons. So I called Erica Yunwook Choi, which is, Yunwook is my Korean name. And that's what my passport says. Yeah. So how that's, that's why I just named Erica Yunwook Choi Limited.
Steve Folland: I see. And so, and then that comes across on your website as EYC. Yeah. Nice. Well, I liked the story behind it as well. Just to put things in perspective. Like how long ago are we talking that you've left that job?
Erica Yunwook Choi: So it was about two years and few more months ago.
Steve Folland: How did things start to grow and pick up, would you say?
Erica Yunwook Choi: Definitely after that first branding project, I started getting loads of like, good positive feedback. It was a perfect project for me and for them as well, because I know them in a professional environment so well, and then also personally, and they really liked the type of graphic skill that I had, which shines what I'm really, really good at in graphic design that really brought me into kind of right spot. Okay. What direction I should go, what projects I should be working on getting more commissions like this,
Steve Folland: I want to check actually, because it sounded like you've been in London for quite some time. Cause you're from South Korea. So how, how much time did you spend in London?
Erica Yunwook Choi: More than 10 years now, I came here 2010, September 28th. I'll never forget that date. I came here to study masters in the Ravensbourne.
Steve Folland: So obviously you're, you're spread across or you have experience and you have contacts in South Korea and in London. So I'm just wondering whether in your business, you use that to your advantage, like leaning into those two markets into those two cultures, I guess?
Erica Yunwook Choi: Well, as I'm actually born in Korea, and I am Korean and I also had experience in Korea as you've just said. So a lot of people would think it's actually easy to kind of have those two markets automatically, but actually it wasn't that straightforward because I had most of my design career in London and although I had a couple of years experience in Seoul in Korea. So when I'm thinking back then, and then now like where I am, of course I, like, I had a bit of a advantage that I had art direction experience in Korea. Let's say that wasn't really the experience that I'd like to carry on and focus. So by the time I had a masters completed, I was really interested in sustainability and graphic design and branding and typography. And then my passion for architecture and urbanism kind of led me to this structural engineering company as a full time graphic designer.
Erica Yunwook Choi: So now I'm thinking my career was quite splitted already was spliting that I could see the journey. So after setting up my own company, I was just focusing one market, which is London and the UK. So I didn't really have a think about having careers and like a potential market to me at the very early, but just before the pandemic, I had a chance to travel back home. So I wanted to have some freedom to go back home and enjoy my holiday as long as possible because I'm not tied to the company which you normally have 23 or 25 days of holidays a year. And then in theory, as a freelancer, you could have just taken as the holidays as long as possible if you want. So you know what, that's probably good to take a bit of a long break.
Erica Yunwook Choi: So that was a few months after I launched my limited company. And I went home and thinking, well, I didn't really have loads of job lined up in the UK. So I was thinking, you know, maybe let's just not limit myself. And then see whether I can kind of construct my network in Korea and see how they see me and my experience, or is there any potential. I just wanted to hear from them creative directors or senior designers and architects, for example, in Korea. So I contacted them like cold emails or Instagram messages and surprisingly the response rate was great. Like I was setting a lot of coffee chats and some of them I visited their studios or their workplace and then introduce myself and what I do.It wasn't really an interview at all.
Erica Yunwook Choi: It wasn't really an interview at all. It was just more of conversation. And then their comments over my work and my experience was quite positive. So I was thinking, oh, maybe I could get some work done like here while I'm here. So I was doing it even more like marketing myself while I was in Korea. And one of my friends back home told me, they're like, Erica, you're here for holiday that you worked remarkably long time for in London. And you're, you're reaching your kind of 10th like design career anniversery. And you know, why don't you just take your time and just enjoy time there in Korea, you know with family and friends. I was thinking, do you know, no, I can't really relax. I don't really have many jobs lined up, but like a, you know, if I go back to London I'd like to see, I like to see the potential. And now I've got limited time only in Korea. So I'd like to do this. So I met some people. Then one of my first Korean clients actually came from that time that when I was marketing myself in Seoul for a very short period of time.
Steve Folland: So you do have a mix of clients across both countries?
Erica Yunwook Choi: Yeah. It wasn't really difficult that, I was really surprised.
Steve Folland: How about when it comes to like your portfolio and showing that work there to just sit next to each other?
Erica Yunwook Choi: Yeah, I think that I'll definitely balance it really obviously really well. I think the languages and the cultures didn't really matter to me when I create my portfolio and the website, I would focus more of the brief and the meanings, like a wise, like reasons. So that is more important to me than mixing languages and cultures. I've quickly realized my Korean clients should be bilingual. And this is me just setting my boundary how I should target a Korean audience who speaks at least two languages, and English, of course. And then who's looking into the markets more of global scale. I'm not saying global scale, like a really huge or Amazon scale company, but just their target audience also should be similar to what I'm targeting in Korea. Otherwise I would fell under that weird, risky area.
Erica Yunwook Choi: Whether you kind of like, you could easily burnt out because Korean markets are really demanding, like clients are, like, pushing of the designers, really sometimes without much respect because they think that they paid for someone to hire. So a lot of clients would think this is me having the power so I can control the designer's time and everything, the whole process. But I only want to work with clients who takes my effort as a partnership, this goes same way in London markets to me, but especially in Korean market. I wanted to express that because I have experienced a really bad let's say influence from clients. And also I hear tons of other similar feedback from my designer friends. So that's what I need to watch out for, which is great limits, I think, to find out that kind of sweet spot in terms of like audience and client, but that's the only way that I could work. For Korean clients.
Steve Folland: That's really interesting. How do you go about, I guess, qualifying the people that you choose to work with on that basis, on the way that they will treat you? Do you have a way that you figure out to know who's going to be guilty of behaving that way?
Erica Yunwook Choi: It is interesting. I normally ask their previous relationship with designers.
Steve Folland: Ask the client what their relationship is like, or your approach previous designers?
Erica Yunwook Choi: Yeah, no, I've asked them, I ask clients what do they like about, what they didn't like about, what they are obviously looking for from designer? And if I let's say, if I challenged them in a really way why they want to do this and why not hiring someone based in Korea instead of like someone like me. So you, I dunno if I had a kind of casual conversation with them, it normally tells me like some secret moments. And if I, yeah, if I see it's, it's because of the language my first language is Korean. So the, the tone of voice and the vocabulary choices, a lot of language kind of tells me those hints. So it's helpful for me to kind of filter, filter them and kind of express myself who actually I am or what type of designers or what type of person I am in a, hopefully it wasn't offending way. Because that's the advantage of my background, I guess, as a Korean who speaks English as a second language.
Steve Folland: I love that. I love the fact that you're choosing who you work with by I guess sounding them out. Yeah. Communicating with them.
Erica Yunwook Choi: That's the whole reason why I wanted to go freelance and work for clients. I mean, it, the money, wasn't my main reason I wanted to set my boundary at the very beginning. And that was a luxury when I was thinking about, oh my God, that will be great. If I can choose clients to work with or at least I can target them, that will be fantastic. So when I kind of getting like a contact, like a reaching out people in Korea, or sometimes in the UK, well, I really carefully kind of pick up or make up those lists. But however it's not really a quick solution. It takes quite a long time and London is not that cheap place to survive. So it's tough. That's why I was still freelancing little bit over here.
Erica Yunwook Choi: And then by using recruiter it's a bit of a no brainer for me. If I get booked by recruiters, then it's easier for me getting paid by daily rate or hourly rates. But targeting two markets can be really tiring and time-consuming, it's a, it's just hard to do living in one place. I'm just trying to be kind of overly smart about how I can easily get a commission, let's say. And sometimes, working in an English environment, it makes me quite nervous and slightly overwhelming sometimes and loads of thoughts coming into my head and processing it while I'm talking. So it's really energy-draining environment for me sometimes. So having freedom from those stress could be great. That's why kind of caring, like our marketing myself in both places.
Steve Folland: Yeah, really interesting. I introduced you as an art director, like when you're marketing yourself, like, how do you get, how do you, what do you call yourself? Like, do some people need an art director, but some people need a graphic designer. Like, is it a tricky situation or is it no, I'm this?
Erica Yunwook Choi: Yeah, it's really a good question, but I don't know how many people actually can empathise on this with me, but I had a really trouble of introducing myself. When I did copywriting for my website it took days and weeks and keep changing like every month and chasing my native, British friends and English speaking friends. Please tell me how this sounds? Because of the website, for example, was quite generic place. People getting to know me and my work, I wanted to introduce me in kind of a generic way. But I don't, I wasn't sure whether same way for the Instagram bio whether this is enough. So, in the recent months recent six months, I wanted to establish photography as my side profession, brand photography. So, okay, do you know, I think art director is probably the best way, and I must say art director or creative director that kind of let's say hierarchy or title-based system, like it traditionally comes from advertising industry which graphic design you're highly kind of integrated.
Erica Yunwook Choi: Now digital environment is another true markets or place or sector, they don't really call it that way. They don't really call designers and art director or creative director in that, in their field. And advertising or digital, are not my strongest or my main field either. So, oh my God. So, I went from creative lead or senior designer just graphic designer and art director or design director, so many choices. However I've decided to wear those masks when I needed. I just accepted, okay. Well, I don't have to be defined by one. I'm a graphic designer and everybody even [inaudible]. Yeah, they will call themselves as a graphic designer. Okay, that's my profession. However, when I work with a client, graphic design, I introduce me as a director at my studio, then freelance is just, I'm just graphic designer for freelance.
Steve Folland: Nice. So you, yes, you've got those options to call yourself a freelance graphic designer or to say I'm an art director for a EYC Design Studio.
Erica Yunwook Choi: Yeah. It took a long time to call myself comfortably calling me as an art director. But I've decided to do it. Because, like when I was solving the client's problem and giving them a solution, it is definitely directing, some sort of art direction or design direction. So I should be director for that. And then when I'm freelancing, well, if I call it as a, like turn up at like a workplace and say, hi, I'm a director, that is just a little bit over the top. So okay, well I'm a graphic designer you know, that you booked for the dah dah dah. But you know, I can do this and that. Yeah, when I'm getting bit, a bit more comfortable. So for the freelancing the title doesn't really matter. Cause you deal with your day, you deal with your recruiter and sort all the day rates and certainly your recruiter really need to know your kind of real kind of experience and you know, cause recruiter would link the right jobs for you.
Steve Folland: Yeah. And you started all of this because creatively, it would help you do the stuff that you wanted to do, but beyond the creativity, are you enjoying it, running your own business?
Erica Yunwook Choi: Well it's a interesting journey, but I will say I'm absolutely happy that I left my full-time work and doing this independently and I'm still not thinking of coming back to full-time job and I'm actually thinking of turning all the notifications away. But I really wish that I had like a design career way early, like even in teen time. The reason I was so passionate of enjoying learning, like Photoshop and the other programs when I was teen. Cause I was so like so obsessed with this boy band, I wanted to create a poster for them and really typical. I, yeah, I wanted to communicate with other fans, to be recognized for my Photoshop skills and design skills. I was just, when I was at school, I was just enjoying doing like drawings and preparing for getting into the art like art college or universities.
Erica Yunwook Choi: So those times that I was like a sponge. But I really wished I could have kind of tried to look at that as a kind of business opportunity. Like not like a huge, like making a lot of money by doing it. Having a bit of a slightly business mindset early on, like a teenage time, could have shaped my design career in twenties and thirties in very, very different ways, I think. So, yeah, like enjoying setting up my own business and running it, it's fun and it's still exciting to be my own boss. Yes. So it's quite a Rocky journey, but I love being in multiple places and in several other projects at the same time. And when I release my projects on my website or Instagram or LinkedIn, I'm so proud that that piece of work has my name on it.
Erica Yunwook Choi: It's, um I don't know. You could say that that is a bit of ego as like, a lot of creatives would have that, but it's not that, it's just enjoying putting your work out there that I'm just so enjoy doing. So of course getting a like a commission work coming through, it's difficult. And then I can't really control who is contacting me for it. But there's a few ways of doing it. It's just obviously referrals, always the best and the quality of the clients, probably the best as well, because they've heard my experience from somewhere else. But secondly, I tried to build the reputation via like magazines and talks and like a contribution as a writer and online communities and so on. So it's like a casting a net for fishing. So those kind of let's say likenot like a manipulation, that's a bit too strong a word for it. Channeling, like sending a message to like-minded people, is what I'm trying to do. And that's the kind of key of the success.
Steve Folland: Erica, if you could tell your younger self, one thing about being freelance, what would that be?
Erica Yunwook Choi: Starting freelance early, even like five years earlier. Technically I couldn't do it so my visa issues in the UK, so lot of British friends who didn't really have this problem they've asked me, oh, why now? Why freelancing now? But they didn't really understand what it's like working under sponsorship by a company. You don't really have the freedom of independent work and side work and there's limits of like moving companies. And it's not like straightforward. So start freelancing early is probably the best advice.
Steve Folland: Yeah. Erica, thank you so much. Lovely talking to you and all the best being freelance.
Erica Yunwook Choi: Thank you so much. And thanks so much for doing it, you know, for us.